Modern-Era Nominees for the Class of 2012

09/28/2011

Bill Cowher

Running back Tiki Barber, quarterback Drew Bledsoe, wide receiver Keyshawn Johnson, guard Will Shields, and coaches Bill Cowher, Bill Parcells, and Marty Schottenheimer are among the 11 first-year eligible modern-era candidates for the Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2012.

The complete list of nominees for the Class of 2012 consists of 105 candidates. From that list of nominees, the Pro Football Hall of Fame Selection Committee will choose 25 candidates who will advance as semifinalist nominees. The list of 25 semifinalists will be announced in mid-November.

Keyshawn Johnson

The list of 25 semifinalists will be further reduced by a mail ballot to 15 modern-era finalists and announced in early January.

The final list of nominees that will be considered for election will consist of the 15 modern-era finalists and the two senior nominees, former Pittsburgh Steelers defensive back Jack Butler and former Detroit Lions guard Dick Stanfel, who were selected this last month by the Hall of Fame’s Senior Selection Committee.

In 2008 the Hall of Fame modified its By-Laws for the Selection Committee making it mandatory for coaches, like players, to be retired five consecutive seasons. Prior to that change, coaches were eligible immediately upon retirement. As such, Parcells was a nominee in 2001, 2002, and 2003 and Schottenheimer was a nominee in 2000. This is their first year of eligibility under the new provision.

Will Shields

The Class of 2012 will be selected from the list of 17 finalists (15 modern-era and two senior nominees). The actual voting will be conducted at the Pro Football Hall of Fame Selection Committee’s annual meeting, which will be held on Saturday, Feb. 4, 2012 the day before Super Bowl XLVI at Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis, Ind. The election results will be announced that evening on NFL Network, live from the Super Bowl Media Center.

While there is no set number for any class of enshrinees, the selection process by-laws provide that between four and seven new members will be selected.

The preliminary list includes 71 players, 14 coaches and 18 contributors, including former NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue and longtime team owners Bud Adams, Jr., Jack Kent Cooke, Ed DeBartolo, Jr., and Art Modell.

While a nominated player or coach must have been retired at least five consecutive seasons, a contributor, who is an individual who has made outstanding career contributions to pro football in capacities other than playing or coaching, may still be active in his pro football career.

Class of 2012 Modern Era Preliminary Nominees:

Quarterbacks
DREW BLEDSOE, Phil Simms

Running Backs
TIKI BARBER, Jerome Bettis, Larry Centers, Roger Craig, STEPHEN DAVIS, Terrell Davis, Eddie George, Curtis Martin, Brian Mitchell (also KR/PR), Gerald Riggs, Herschel Walker, Ricky Watters

Wide Receivers
Tim Brown (also KR), Cris Carter, Gary Clark, Mark Clayton, Henry Ellard (also PR), KEYSHAWN JOHNSON, Andre Reed, Sterling Sharpe, Jimmy Smith, ROD SMITH

Tight Ends
Ben Coates, Todd Christensen, Frank Wycheck

Offensive Linemen
Tony Boselli (T), Lomas Brown (T), Jim Covert (T), Dermontti Dawson (C), Joe Fields (C), Jay Hilgenberg (C), Chris Hinton (G/T), Kent Hull (C), Joe Jacoby (T), Mike Kenn (T), Jim Lachey (T), Willie Roaf (T), WILL SHIELDS (G), Steve Wisniewski (G)

Defensive Linemen
Dave Butz (DE/DT), Chris Doleman (DE/LB), Carl Hairston (DE/DT), Charles Haley (DE/LB), Ed “Too Tall” Jones (DE), Cortez Kennedy (DT), Joe Klecko (DE/DT/NT), Dexter Manley (DE), Charles Mann (DE), Fred Smerlas (NT)

Linebackers
Cornelius Bennett, Kevin Greene (also DE), Ken Harvey, Clay Matthews, Karl Mecklenburg, Sam Mills

Defensive Backs
Eric Allen (CB), Steve Atwater (S), Joey Browner (S), LeRoy Butler (S), Kenny Easley (S), Albert Lewis (CB), Donnie Shell (S), TROY VINCENT(CB), Everson Walls (CB), Aeneas Williams (CB/S), Darren Woodson (S)

Kickers/Punters
Gary Anderson (K), Nick Lowery (K), Reggie Roby (P), MIKE VANDERJAGT (K)

Special Teams
Steve Tasker (ST/WR)

Coaches
Bill Arnsparger, Bud Carson, Don Coryell, BILL COWHER, Tom Flores, Jimmy Johnson, Chuck Knox, Chuck Mather, BILL PARCELLS, Buddy Parker, Dan Reeves, MARTY SCHOTTENHEIMER, Clark Shaughnessy, Dick Vermeil

Contributors
K.S. “Bud” Adams, Jr. (Owner), Bobby Beathard (Admin.), Gil Brandt (Admin.), Leo Carlin (Admin.), Jack Kent Cooke (Owner), Otho Davis (Trainer), Ed DeBartolo, Jr. (Owner), Ron Gibbs (Official), Jim Kensil (Admin.), Eddie Kotal (Admin.), Art McNally (Official), Art Modell (Owner), Steve Sabol (NFL Films), Paul Tagliabue (Commissioner), Burl Toler, Sr. (Official), Jim Tunney (Official), Ron Wolf (Admin.), George Young (Admin.)

Italics denotes finalists for the Class of 2011

CAPS denotes first-year eligibles

 

2012 Nominees - Alphabetical with teams and years>>>


More From Profootballhof.com

Photo Galleries: First Year Eligible Players for Class of 2012 | First Year Eligibles elected since 2000
Selection process
Butler, Stanfel named Senior Nominees


Recent Comments
  • devin - April 03 2014 09:36 PM

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  • BRENT HOLSHOUSER - January 11 2014 12:32 AM

    As much as I love the NFL, the Hall of Fame voting is such a joke to me that now I don't even watch the induction ceremony anymore. I'm astounded at some of the guys they put in there, it's almost as if the voters feel they have to put in the "good ol' boys" who gather 'round each Sunday as "talking heads" or "experts" and make the pre-game shows absolutely unbearable to watch. I, for one, can't understand why two Minnesota Vikings greats, Jim Marshall and Mick Tinglehoff, have never been put in. These guys were iron men at their positions despite playing on 4 losing Super Bowl teams. Doesn't matter, they made it to the Super Bowl where others didn't. And they played with a high level of consistency that is non-existent nowadays. Marshall and Tinglehoff were true pros, and they are MUCH MORE DESERVING of being in the Hall of Fame than some of the guys currently up for nomination and EVEN MORE SO than some of the ones who have already been inducted. To Mr. Marshall and Mr. Tinglehoff - YOU GUYS ARE HALL OF FAMERS IN THIS FAN'S EYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  • Benjamin Miramon - July 30 2012 09:25 AM

    Jim Plunkett! Where the heck is Jim Plunkett in all of this? Heisman Trophy winner, NFL rookie of the year, 2 (I repeat 2) Super Bowl Championships, MVP winner Super Bowl 15. PLEASE tell me how Jim Plunkett can be nominated for this appointment!

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  • joe - July 23 2012 11:48 AM

    Ken Anderson, enough said! should of been in the Hall already and still get's snubbed by the Hall. Shame on the NFL... but the ones that got in deservre it but Ken Anderson needs in.

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  • mel - June 06 2012 12:49 PM

    Wow Ray Guy and Lester Hayes didn't even make the preliminary ballot. Does that mean they won't be on future ballots like in Baseball?

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  • bachslunch - January 03 2012 01:04 PM

    Raider Ace, the reason you don't find Lester Hayes or Ray Guy on this list is that they are no longer eligible as regular candidates. They've dropped into the Senior category.

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  • Raider Ace - January 01 2012 07:06 PM

    I agree with Mel and Richard. Though I can't complain regarding the selection of players from other teams, the fact that Ray Guy and Lester Hayes are not on this list continues to tell me that the Hall is not on top of their game. NO ONE deserves being in the Hall more than Ray Guy. This guy re-defined special teams till this day. One has to ask the 5 W's and H as to the yearly selection that does not include Mr. Guy. I will take a page out of ESPN "C'mon Man!"

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  • bachslunch - December 31 2011 11:29 AM

    Bill, Roger Brown is only Senior-eligible, not via the regular route. brandon, as already mentioned below, in Rasaretnam's QB rankings, Drew Bledsoe placed 61st in "best 4," 61st in "best 7," and 37th in "best 10." That's about in the territory of Jim Everett, Brian Sipe, Boomer Esiason, Ron Jaworski, and Randall Cunningham and seems about right -- they were all certainly good players, but not at HoF level.

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  • brandon bledsoe - December 29 2011 11:51 AM

    Drew bledsoe has been one of the hardest players i have ever seen and one of the toughest mentally and physically. He has deserved this spot ever since he stepped on that field. Still many records are still his whether it was from being a patriot or all the way back from when he was a WSU couger. He deserves this more than alot of other players in the hall of fame.

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  • BILL - December 28 2011 08:06 AM

    Roger Brown he was named the 1962 Outstanding Defensive Lineman in the league, and set a record by sacking both Bart Starr and Johnny Unitas for safeties in one season, an NFL record. He played for the Lions through the 1966 season, then was traded to the Los Angeles Rams. Was known for his performance in the "Thanksgiving Day Massacre" game against the Green Bay Packers in 1962 where he sacked Bart Starr 6 times, including one for a safety

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  • bachslunch - December 21 2011 11:20 AM

    LR, your argument in favor of LeBeau is what's off base. LeBeau's postseason honors are by far the weakest for any HoF DB at 0(0AP)/3/none (no 1st team all pro selections, 3 pro bowls, no all decade team selections). His high number of lifetime INTs reflects the fact that he played a hugely long time and likely got thrown against more often than his Lions CB counterparts, Dick Lane at 6(3AP)/7/50s and Lem Barney at 2(2AP)/7/60s, both of whom have much better postseason honors than LeBeau. Looking only at LeBeau's assistant coaching record with the Steelers conveniently ignores that he did not do well when either an assistant or head coach with the Bengals, which covers at least a third of his coaching career. And if one argues that LeBeau's best claim to HoF membership is his invention of the zone blitz, then he should be in the HoF as a contributor, not as a player. He's in as a player.

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  • LR - December 21 2011 02:45 AM

    Mike K; You are way off on LeBeau, he was great and waited too long for induction, one of the all-time leaders in interceptions when he retired, not to mention he has been one of the best defensive coaches ever. Seems to me the Steelers are one of the best defenses year after year, think he may have something to do with it?

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  • Jessemoate - December 08 2011 05:26 PM

    Chris Carter should have been a first ballot hall of fame selection if he fails to get selected this year then l will lose faith in the selection process. I mean with 130 TDs second most at the time of his retirement he earned a spot in canton. I also believe that Tim Brown should get in shortly after Carter.

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  • bachslunch - December 01 2011 04:38 PM

    SSR, I'm not interested in embracing sports-based conspiracy theories, including the one you're suggesting. And if you missed it before, I'll say it again: the best policy is to not get oneself in a sufficiently precarious position that a controversial call can beat you. So what's the issue on Stabler? From what I can see, QBs who get into the HoF primarily have stat-driven arguments, and outliers have to at least have been very good with two or more NFL Championship or Super Bowl wins, the more the better. If we look at Rasaretnam's "Best 7 years" rankings for QBs (HoF-ers starred) who played a significant amount in the 70s, it lists Ken Anderson 3rd, *Fran Tarkenton 5th, *Roger Staubach 13th, Roman Gabriel 17th, *Dan Fouts 19th, *Bob Griese 24th, Joe Theismann 34th, Ken Stabler 38th, Archie Manning 43rd, Craig Morton 45th, Steve Bartkowski 53rd, Billy Kilmer 55th, Brian Sipe 62nd, *Joe Namath 67th, Jim Hart 69th, *Terry Bradshaw 74th, Dan Pastorini 77th, Jim Zorn 83rd, Joe Ferguson 86th, and Jim Plunkett 90th. The two 70s HoF outliers are Bradshaw, who won 4 Super Bowls, and Namath, who can be considered a mistake. Again, Stabler only won one SB, and it's just not enough to make up the difference given the tradition the HoF has established on electing QBs. In fact, he's arguably closest to Theismann, ranked in "Best 7" only four places higher and also with one Super Bowl win -- and nobody's beating down the door to get him in the HoF, nor should they. Give Stabler even two more Super Bowl wins and that's likely a different story. And as far as I can see, the big question should be "Why isn't Ken Anderson in the HoF?" There are in fact several QBs in with excellent stats and no Super Bowl/NFL Championship success, including Tarkenton (5th), Y.A. Tittle (9th), Sonny Jurgensen (15th), Dan Marino (18th), and Fouts (19th), and it's not clear why Anderson is different here. I say we get Anderson in the HoF first and then let's talk about Stabler, okay?

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  • bachslunch - November 28 2011 02:43 PM

    jack, I did watch football back in the 90s, and there's no way I considered Drew Bledsoe to be a HoF QB, certainly not as good as HoF level players whose careers overlapped his to varying degrees such as Brett Favre, Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman, or Warren Moon. As noted below, one stat period adjustment scale, (http://newqbrating.blogspot.com/2010/04/c-scores-new-way-to-evaluate-pro.html), ranks Bledsoe 61st in "best 4," 61st in "best 7," and 37th in "best 10." That's about in the territory of Jim Everett, Brian Sipe, Boomer Esiason, Ron Jaworski, and Randall Cunningham and seems about right -- they were all certainly good players, but not at HoF level. Bledsoe was the Pats starting QB for 8 years and two games beyond, not 10 years, and I see no case for him helping Buffalo or Dallas "return to respectability" or he would have lasted longer than 3 years with the former and 2 years with the latter and actually taken either team to the playoffs. And if one looks at his W-L records with the Patriots from 1996 to 2001, those numbers dropped every year: 11-5, 10-6, 8-6, 8-8, 5-11, then 0-2 and injured. If playing hurt automatically qualified a player for the HoF, nearly every NFL player would be in, not just Bledsoe. And being a "franchise savior" is a dumb HoF argument, no better for Bledsoe than it is for Floyd Little, and an especially silly one when we're talking about the "New England" Patriots and Hartford is in New England. Besides, if we're desperately looking for "franchise saviors," it'll be Bill Parcells who gets any such designation, for what very, very little that's worth. matthewhennigan, it's tough to see any HoF case for Charlie Hennigan when neither of his AFL contemporaries Lionel Taylor or Art Powell are in and the HoF voters are so stringent with WRs in general. Besides he's only Senior-eligible now, and this thread deals with regularly-eligible candidates.

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  • jack - November 24 2011 01:13 AM

    Drew Bledsoe took a very bad frnachise: not team, mind you, franchise, and turned it into a Super Bowl team in a few short years. Tom Brady would never have even seen Gillette Stadium if it hadn't been for Drew. He turned that franchise around and kept Bob Kraft from moving the team to Connecticut. For 10 years he was the face of the Patriots franchise, and kept them in contention while shattering NFL passing records, some of which still stand today. When he was done here, he helped teams in Buffalo and Dallas return to respectablility. I will never forget the game he put the ball up 70 times, completed 45 of them, and beat Mnnesota in a thrilling contest. I believe that both those single game attempts and completions are still single game records. He was 7th in all-time yardage when he retired. He was also the toughest player I have ever seen , playing in consecutive playoff games with broken fingers on his throwing hand. He even returned to the game in which Mo Lewi****him so hard that he had an artery severed and nearly bled to death. He deserves to be a Hall of Famer. Anyone who watched football in New England pre-Brady and Belicheck will attest to that. Drew was the Patriots in those years !

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  • matthewhennigan - November 23 2011 07:20 PM

    i wonder why the comitte never considers charlie hennigan the man has recieving records that still stand today.He had a outstanding career go to henniganforthehall.com and checkout Dr.hennigan,s records stats and you will see why he should be a nominee their people in the hall that had done less in their careers than he but amazingly this 77 yr old man continues to be overlooked why.

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  • bachslunch - November 16 2011 08:02 AM

    Rasputin, good point made re Troy Aikman. If I'm going to endorse Kiran Rasaretnam's era-adjusted QB stat thinking regarding a HoF case for Ken Anderson, that same set of tables show Aikman's best-4 and best-7 both as being 10th all time, and best-10 as 13th all time. He's surrounded by HoF QBs in all cases, and certainly well within legitimate HoF standards. That's not the case for Terry Bradshaw (101st, 45th, 74th) or Bobby Layne (67th, 50th, 35th) or Joe Namath (66th, 67th, 42nd) or Bob Griese (27th, 24th, 17th). Anderson incidentally comes out 3rd, 3rd, and 5th here. So using this method, you're right. Website link again is: http://newqbrating.blogspot.com/2010/04/c-scores-new-way-to-evaluate-pro.html

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  • Rasputin - November 12 2011 10:07 PM

    Bachslunch, this is tangential to your point but I can't let it pass. Aikman wasn't "good", he was great (I thought your screenname looked familiar, lol), and he was better than Bradshaw so don't equate them. It's correct to point out that Aikman didn't get into Canton primarily on his stats, but that's due to the balanced system he played in. He got in primarily for his multiple SB titles, but he was a necessary piece of that SB run and he did have some awesome stats in certain categories that illustrate how good he was, especially in the postseason. From 1992-1995 he had a streak of 11 consecutive playoff games where his combined passer rater was 106.3, which I believe is higher than any QB in history who made the playoffs each year over an equivalent span. Aikman still holds the career SB record for completion percentage (min. 40 attempts) at 70%. Despite being drafted by the worst team in the league and playing out his last few years with a shot back and injured knees on a team crashing into salary cap hell, he retired with one of the highest career regular season completion percentages in history. These numbers aren't flukes. It's not like Joe Montana and other cream of the crop QBs weren't surrounded by talent. Stats like these and the championships themselves are quantifiable manifestations of what the eyeball test showed: that Aikman was possibly the most accurate passer of all time (Pat Summerall agrees, and he's probably seen more pro QBs than any analyst alive), and a strong, selfless, very smart leader to boot. If Aikman had played on another, less talented team with a different system he probably would have won fewer championships but his regular season numbers would have been much higher in areas like yardage and tds (not that they aren't pretty good as they are). It wouldn't surprise me if a QB of his talents had made it to Canton on a weaker team based on the individual stats he would have been allowed to generate, but I figure he prefers it the way it turned out, Lombardi trophies and all.

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  • KC - November 06 2011 01:19 PM

    #88 Drew Pearson of the 70's Dallas Cowboys needs to be in the Hall of Fame! He was on the 70's All-Decade Team, won a Super Bowl, was part of some of the best Super Bowls ever played (Cowboys/Steelers), caught the "Hail Mary" in the playoffs against Minnesota, and even threw the last block downfield on Tony Dorsett's record 99 yard run. I bet Roger Staubach woud vote for him. Mr. Clutch deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

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  • bachslunch - October 26 2011 04:31 PM

    Bill A., Doug Flutie's NFL numbers are all that matter here, as the CFL has its own HoF. And while Flutie had an intriguing career, it's just not a PFHoF level one. Much as I don't agree with his methods, I'll agree with Jon that Drew Bledsoe has more of a HoF argument than Flutie.

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  • bachslunch - October 26 2011 04:23 PM

    Jon, comparing Drew Bledsoe's raw stats without period adjustment to QBs like "J. Kelly J. Montana J. Elway J. Namath T. Aikman S. Young T.Bradshaw R. Staubach" is a bad use of numbers. You need to period-adjust, plus QBs like Bradshaw and Aikman are Hall of the Very Good players who got a postseason success boost up into the HoF. Bledsoe doesn't have this help. One site that makes a solid attempt to do comparisons with period adjustment is this one: http://newqbrating.blogspot.com/2010/04/c-scores-new-way-to-evaluate-pro.html In it, Bledsoe ranks 61st in "best 4," 61st in "best 7," and 37th in "best 10." That's about in the territory of Jim Everett, Brian Sipe, Boomer Esiason, Ron Jaworski, and Randall Cunningham -- all certainly good, but not at HoF level.

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  • Jon - October 26 2011 10:59 AM

    Ok guy who wants to compare Doug Flutie to Drew Bledsoe .... BTW Drew Bledsoe is a clear hall of famer. Yards per game Drew Bledsoe 230 (16th all time)(above J. Kelly J. Montana J. Elway J. Namath T. Aikman S. Young T.Bradshaw R. Staubach etc) Doug Flutie 159.9 (104th all time) Below Tim Couch Touchdowns Drew Bledsoe 251 (15th all time) again above many hall of famers! Doug Flutie 86 134th all time Below David Garrard Passing Yards Career Drew Bledsoe 8th 44,611 Doug Flutie 129th 14,715 (33% of what Drew had THIRTY THOUSAND LESS!!!) Drew Bledsoe is better than 75% of the QB's in the hall of fame

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  • bachslunch - October 26 2011 08:36 AM

    Mike K., thanks for the comments. Yes, I do find this topic interesting. Agreed that no current regularly-eligible QBs deserve HoF membership. Also agreed that Chuck Foreman's (Senior eligible only) short career hurts his HoF case -- not sure he's quite got enough, not to mention that RBs are lavishly represented in the HoF as it is. One of the biggest problems with Rickey Watters for the HoF is that he looks like a poor-man's version of Marshall Faulk -- again, not sure his case is strong enough, and while the total yards from scrimmage argument isn't a bad one, it's not helping Herschel Walker, either. Art Powell (Senior eligible only) had a brilliant but short career, which lumps him with Lionel Taylor in the likely-not-getting-in category -- and given that WRs have a tougher time than other skill positions getting elected, it's not surprising he's in a huge logjam of fine short-career WRs (Mac Speedie, Del Shofner, Sterling Sharpe) and longer-career types like Billy Howton, Billy Wilson, Harold Carmichael, Harold Jackson, Drew Pearson, Cliff Branch, Stanley Morgan, and Henry Ellard. And that hard line on WRs is going to make Rod Smith and Jimmy Smith among the best WRs of their era never to get into the HoF. Note that Irving Fryar has a plus on his side compared to several WRs in that he was also a fine KR -- but compared to Tim Brown, who also did both and had a better career, it likely won't be enough for Fryar. Ben Coates strikes me as having the best TE argument of his time after Shannon Sharpe, though his career is a little short -- and Pete Retzlaff (Senior eligible only) would have a good case along with fellow Senior Jerry Smith. Mike Kenn is caught in a logjam of second-tier OTs from the time along with Leon Gray, Joe Jacoby, and Marvin Powell -- Jacoby may get in because of a heavy lobbying fan base and being on a o-line with a fun nickname rather than because he was necessarily better than the others. Chris Hinton's postseason honors profile of 2(1AP)/7/none isn't bad, though Lomas Brown and Richmond Webb have almost exactly the same numbers, and they're all likely going to just fall short. Of the Senior eligible OTs mentioned, Dick Schafrath arguably has the best case, with Winston Hill and Ralph Neely a bit behind. I don't see Nate Newton as having a shot at the HoF, and it'll be interesting to see if Steve Wisniewski's reputation for flagrantly dirty play keeps him out despite really good 5(2AP)/8/90s honors. And I don't see any of the centers you mentioned being elected, given how strict the HoF has historically been at this position -- I don't see any centers from the last 20 years getting elected except Dermontti Dawson and (when he's eligible) Kevin Mawae, as a result.

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  • Bill Arcarese - October 24 2011 11:45 AM

    Drew Bledsoe is on the list and not Doug Flutie!?!?!? This is a ridiculous oversight. Check his PRO stats and try to tell me he is not qualifed. ABSURD!!

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  • bachslunch - October 24 2011 11:35 AM

    kirby, some thoughts. First, Ray Guy is no longer eligible as a regular candidate and this particular announcement only concerns non-Seniors, so the right place to discuss him is on a Seniors topic. Second, while several of the HoF voters would indeed be willing to vote in a punting specialist, not all are willing to do so (the thinking as I understand it for the naysayers is that punters, like long snappers and kick return specialists and special teams specialists, are only on the field for a limited number of plays and do not merit the level HoF of consideration full time offensive and defensive players get) -- I'm not a fan of this thinking, but you'll have to convince these voters otherwise. Third, some voters have said they would vote for a punting specialist but not Guy because they have concerns about the number of touchbacks he had and find his average yards per punt unremarkable. I personally think Guy has a good HoF argument, but so do Tommy Davis, Jerrel Wilson, Horace Gillom, Don Chandler, Reggie Roby, Rohn Stark, and Rich Camarillo (Davis is a particular must, to me) -- am not keen to just induct Guy and leave it at that, as others are highly deserving. Finally, while I'd like to see punters like Shane Lechler and Jeff Feagles get their fair consideration, it's not clear they'll fare any better in this discussion with the voters.

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  • kirby - October 23 2011 02:44 PM

    bachslunch- Your comment on kickers already in the Hall is well taken. I should have referred to position only players. However, you didn't address my main point about Ray Guy not being voted in - that the integrity of the Hall is diminished by not including him. I mean, what does it say for players like Jeff Feagles or Shane Lechler and their prospects for being inducted down the road?

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  • bachslunch - October 20 2011 08:00 AM

    Mike K., lots of players there, and my two cents follow. Of the regularly eligible DL you mentioned, the best cases would arguably be for Mark Gastineau at 4(3AP)/5/none, Fred Smerlas at 3(1AP)/5/none, Michael Dean Perry at 5(2AP)/6/none, and Ray Childress at 3(1AP)/5/none. It's possible that both his short career and steroid use hurt Gastineau's case, though, and all pale next to peers already in such as Reggie White, Bruce Smith, Randy White, Howie Long, and John Randle, not to mention folks not yet in or coming up soon such as Cortez Kennedy, Michael Strahan, and Warren Sapp. Curley Culp at 1(1AP)/6/none, Leslie O'Neal at 0(0AP)/6/none, and Neil Smith at 1(1AP)/6/90s look like they're a shade behind Gastineau-and-company's second-tier logjam. And guys like Joe Klecko at 2(2AP)/4/none, Too Tall Jones at 2(1AP)/3/none, and Harvey Martin at 1(1AP)/4/70s are floating in this mix as well. It'll be tough to separate them out in worth. Senior-eligible Bob Gain at 2(0AP)/5/none is no slouch, but would be behind Gene Brito at 4(3AP)/5/none for 50s-era DL. For LBs, agreed that Cornelius Bennett at 3(1AP)/5/90s as well as Pat Swilling at 2(2AP)/5/none and Greg Lloyd at 3(3AP)/5/none have solid OLB arguments from the era, though my guess is that the arguably better Charles Haley and Kevin Greene will be the last two such players from the period to make the HoF at this position. There are a ton of Senior OLB snubs from the 50s and 60s -- and given the competition, Walt Michaels at 1(0AP)/5/none looks to be at the next level down. And that's also a problem for Senior-eligible Andy Russell at 1(0AP)/7/none when guys like Robert Brazile and Chuck Howley aren't in. Cornerbacks seem to fare better than safeties with HoF voters for some reason, which is why Nolan Cromwell at 3(3AP)/4/80s will fall short when guys like Kenny Easley at 4(3AP)/5/80s and Joey Browner at 4(3AP)/6/80s aren't getting the time of day. More to come.

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  • Mike K. - October 19 2011 02:36 AM

    Bachslunch, here are some defensive players I wanted to ask you about. At DT, what about Michael Dean Perry? Pretty solid career; he just had the misfortune of playing in an era in which Warren Sapp, John Randle, Cortez Kennedy, and Bryant Young (the four '90's all-decade team DTs) were all active. Fred Smerlas and Curley Culp were two of the better nose tackles in the earlier years of the position, seems to me, and there have been few nose tackles since them that I would consider better or even equal (not counting a guy like Joe Klecko, who played only a bit of his career at that position, albeit quite well). Ray Childress was extremely underrated at the DT position. Bob Gain was one of the great Browns from back in the day whose career merits more of a look than it perhaps ever really got. At DE, what about Mark Gastineau? Did his off-field problems contribute to the voters not being very enamored with him? I do wonder sometimes. Leslie O'Neal lacks first team all-pro honors, but still had a great career, and sure had a heck of a lot of sacks compared to many of his peers, but does this make him worthy, is the question? Neil Smith has been really snubbed, unfairly so, I feel. Linebackers, I know, are discussed ad nauseum, but there are a few not often brought up. Walt Michaels had a sensational run with Cleveland; why hasn't he been given more consideration? What about Andy Russell? The guy had a terrific career. Do you make an exception for a guy like him who, unfortunately, kept getting passed over for AP all-pro honors (looks like he only had one second team year)? It is notable that a number of different publications gave him their own honors over the years, and he was voted to 7 Pro Bowls in an era when fans didn't select players, so he was pretty well-recognized by many as being quite good. As far as more modern guys go, Cornelius Bennett has a stronger case than some might think. Too many defensive backs, as is often lamented by so many, have been given the shaft, for reasons I still can't fathom. Guys at CB not often mentioned are Cornell Green, Eric Allen, Albert Lewis, and Louis Wright. Bobby Boyd didn't have the longest career, but he was absolutely terrific during the time he played, and guys in his era tended not to have long careers anyway. Richie Petitbon isn't mentioned often, but perhaps should be discussed more. Pat Fischer was an interception machine, but I'm not quite sure how much more he was than that. I've had trouble figuring a guy like Nolan Cromwell out. Was his career good enough to merit Hall induction, or not? When talking about the two Dolphins safeties from their Super Bowl winning teams, Dick Anderson and Jake Scott, do you really consider either of them Hall worthy? It's kind of hard for me to tell with those guys, but they're certainly the only members of the No Name Defenses, other than Buoniconti, who should even be mentioned in the same breath as the Hall. More modern safeties that deserve to be in the discussion more often are Carnell Lake and Deron Cherry. Any more information or insights you can give me on those guys? Thanks.

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  • Mike K. - October 19 2011 12:05 AM

    I agree with Bachslunch on Tom Flores. I've often thought the same things about him and his candidacy myself. It's too bad he couldn't sustain the winning from earlier in his coaching career; his last two years with the Raiders were not very good, and his stint with Seattle was a disaster, with him being unable to get the team to .500 in any of his three seasons there. If he'd coached for more years, and had decent success in those years, he might have been more deserving. The reasons why his predecessor John Madden, who had an even shorter coaching career and only won one SB, was a more deserving Hall candidate (and ultimately made the Hall) were his insanely good winning percentage (above .700) and his ability to keep the team consistently competitive in an era where the powerhouse Steelers (and, to a lesser degree, the very good Dolphins) constantly had to be contended with. The Raiders made it to an amazing 5 AFC championship games in a row from 1973-1977 (and might have been to 6 in a row had it not been for the notorious Immaculate Reception), made another AFC championship round in 1970, and reached the AFL championship game in '69 (Madden's first year) while he coached them. All told, Madden got them to 8 playoffs and 7 AFL/AFC championship contests, quite impressive given the fact that there were only 4 playoff spots per conference up until the 1978 season (Madden's last). You pretty much have to accomplish what Madden did and no less to make it to the Hall as a short-career head coach.

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  • bachslunch - October 17 2011 03:17 PM

    kirby, there are in fact a number of kickers/punters in the HoF, though with the exception of Jan Stenerud, none were dedicated kicking specialists. But make no mistake, players who punted during their careers such as Sammy Baugh and Norm Van Brocklin and Yale Lary and Bill Dudley and Bob Waterfield and Lem Barney and Jackie Smith and Tony Canadeo and Clark Hinkle, as well as kickers such as Waterfield and Lou Groza and George Blanda and Doak Walker and Paul Hornung and Bobby Layne are very much HoF members. Besides, as has been repeatedly said below, Ray Guy is only eligible as a Senior now and not via the regular candidate route -- and leonard, that goes for all your "real hall of famers." James, Tom Flores's HoF argument begins and ends with two Super Bowl wins -- his relatively short career with an undistinguished regular season W-L record of 97-87 keeps him out, and rightly so.

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  • kirby - October 15 2011 07:16 PM

    The last time I looked kickers and punters were part of a football team. You would never know it by the Hall of Fame. The voters who have refused to vote in Ray Guy should be required to explain why. Maybe they should ask Chuck Knoll and Don Shula about having to game plan for him whether he should be in or not. I'm guessing the answer would be an emphatic yes. Aren't the voters the same ones who put Ray Guy on the 75th anniversary team? Ray Guy is on a very short list of players who redefined their position. Hopefully the veterans committee shows more common sense when they get a chance.

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  • Mike K. - October 13 2011 10:16 PM

    Three big problems I have with the Hall voting process: 1) I feel that there really aren't enough spots in each class. My belief is that there actually should be a maximum of 7 spots for modern-era candidates alone, two spots for seniors, and maybe one other spot for a contributor (as many have suggested, contributors should really be elected separately from regular candidates), for a total of 10 spots maximum per year, which seems more commensurate with the amount of personnel in pro football than does the current maximum of 7. This would have the long-term effect of shrinking the seniors pool, as it would likely allow fewer deserving candidates to even fall into the pool in the first place. 2) The seniors who end up being inducted in a given year should be picked out of a range of players/coaches, kind of like the Baseball Hall of Fame does it. The Seniors Committee should come up with a list of guys who they think would be good candidates, and present that to the voters, rather than just two per year. I think some pretty strong candidates from the past, like Al Wistert, Dick Schafrath, Jerry Kramer, Maxie Baughan, L.C. Greenwood, Chuck Howley, and others would probably have been inducted by now if voters were allowed to choose from a spate of candidates, and some of the guys now in who were inducted as seniors might have had to wait a bit longer, as their cases for the Hall were not as strong as the players mentioned above, at least in my view; I'm thinking of players like Henry Jordan, George Musso, Dick LeBeau, possibly even Floyd Little and Tommy McDonald. Don't get me wrong; I still believe these guys deserved to make the Hall (well, maybe not LeBeau, who was probably voted in for the wrong reason), just not before candidates like Wistert, et al. Also, with such a system, there might never have been serious consideration given to candidates like Willie Galimore, Marshall Goldberg, and Lou Rymkus, among others, who I think were poor choices by the Seniors Committee, and whose nominations really wasted the voters' time. Why, in particular, has Goldberg been nominated twice? From everything I know, he was very good, but not great, and was a much better player in college than he ever was in the pros. 3) Why are the selectors not greater in number, as is the case with the Baseball HOF and the BBWAA? I think having that larger number of selectors would make things more democratic and fairer, and introduce a wider range of opinions to the process. Feel free to discuss.

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  • Mike K. - October 13 2011 09:24 PM

    Three big problems I have with the Hall voting process: 1) I feel that there really aren't enough spots in each class. My belief is that there actually should be a maximum of 7 spots for modern-era candidates alone, two spots for seniors, and maybe one other spot for a contributor (as many have suggested, contributors should really be elected separately from regular candidates), for a total of 10 spots maximum per year, which seems more commensurate with the amount of personnel in pro football than does the current maximum of 7. This would have the long-term effect of shrinking the seniors pool, as it would likely allow fewer deserving candidates to even fall into the pool in the first place. 2) The seniors who end up being inducted in a given year should be picked out of a range of players/coaches, kind of like the Baseball Hall of Fame does it. The Seniors Committee should come up with a list of guys who they think would be good candidates, and present that to the voters, rather than just two per year. I think some pretty strong candidates from the past, like Al Wistert, Dick Schafrath, Jerry Kramer, Maxie Baughan, L.C. Greenwood, Chuck Howley, and others would probably have been inducted by now if voters were allowed to choose from a spate of candidates, and some of the guys now in who were inducted as seniors might have had to wait a bit longer, as their cases for the Hall were not as strong as the players mentioned above, at least in my view; I'm thinking of players like Henry Jordan, George Musso, Dick LeBeau, possibly even Floyd Little and Tommy McDonald. Don't get me wrong; I still believe these guys deserved to make the Hall (well, maybe not LeBeau, who was probably voted in for the wrong reason), just not before candidates like Wistert, et al. Also, with such a system, there might never have been serious consideration given to candidates like Willie Galimore, Marshall Goldberg, and Lou Rymkus, among others, who I think were poor choices by the Seniors Committee, and whose nominations really wasted the voters' time. Why, in particular, has Goldberg been nominated twice? From everything I know, he was very good, but not great, and was a much better player in college than he ever was in the pros. 3) Why are the selectors not greater in number, as is the case with the Baseball HOF and the BBWAA? I think having that larger number of selectors would make things more democratic and fairer, and introduce a wider range of opinions to the process. Feel free to discuss.

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  • david stone - October 13 2011 07:52 PM

    keyshawn for the hall, please I'm a bucs fan and I remember over 100 catches with 1 td! He never ran much after a catch either but always complained about not getting the ball. If he had more td's and less moaning maybe, but otherwise NO !

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  • Mike K. - October 13 2011 04:50 AM

    For more info on Tyrer and the possibility that he had CTE, see the link below: http://blog.4wallspublishing.com/2011/06/16/football-brain-trauma-can-change-personality-spur-violence.aspx

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  • Mike K. - October 13 2011 04:32 AM

    Max, regarding Jim Tyrer, there are many who are starting to suspect that his murder/suicide and the depression that engendered it during his post-playing career were products of chronic traumatic encephalopathy, at least from what I've heard. If more evidence comes to light that Tyrer indeed suffered from this condition, the seniors committee may eventually come to view the later Tyrer as not the "real" him, but a product of dementia and brain degeneration, and take pity on him. It remains to be seen what will be uncovered regarding his life and decline in mental health.

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  • leonard hagan - October 12 2011 05:55 PM

    lets talk real hall of famers that aren't in yet, Ken Stabler, ken Anderson, John Hadl, John Brodie, Jim Plunkett, Earl Morrall and my personal favorite Roman Gabriel a class act through and through, others like Chuck Foreman, Cliff Branch, Pete Retzlaff, Art Powell, Billy Howton, Billy Wilson, Jerry Smith, Gary Collins, Lee Roy Jordan, Ben Davidson, Lyle Alzado, Otis Taylor,Roger Craig, Ken Willard just to name afew, I am sure i have missed alot of other well deserving players, but the hall should consider doubling their induction in 2013 from 7 to 14 members so they can have a blast during hall of fame weekend while opening their new building and get some well overlooked players in.

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  • Mike K. - October 12 2011 03:58 PM

    Max, regarding Jim Tyrer, there are many who are starting to suspect that his murder/suicide and the depression that engendered it during his post-playing career were products of chronic traumatic encephalopathy, at least from what I've heard. If more evidence comes to light that Tyrer indeed suffered from this condition, the seniors committee may eventually come to view the later Tyrer as not the "real" him, but a product of dementia and brain degeneration, and take pity on him. It remains to be seen what will be uncovered regarding his life and decline in mental health.

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  • Mike K. - October 12 2011 03:58 PM

    Max, regarding Jim Tyrer, there are many who are starting to suspect that his murder/suicide and the depression that engendered it during his post-playing career were products of chronic traumatic encephalopathy, at least from what I've heard. If more evidence comes to light that Tyrer indeed suffered from this condition, the seniors committee may eventually come to view the later Tyrer as not the "real" him, but a product of dementia and brain degeneration, and take pity on him. It remains to be seen what will be uncovered regarding his life and decline in mental health.

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  • bachslunch - October 12 2011 02:01 PM

    Bee, Dan Marino is not the only HoF QB who lacked WR or TE HoF-ers to throw to -- as far as I can tell, neither did Bobby Layne, Len Dawson, John Elway, Bart Starr, Y.A. Tittle, or Fran Tarkenton. In Marino's case, Clayton and Duper evenly split the receiver stats for several years -- or in other words, they were two very good, if not quite HoF-level passing targets.

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  • bachslunch - October 12 2011 11:18 AM

    Max, thanks for the positive feedback. And I do agree that off-field issues do seem to impact some HoF election decisions, especially in the case of second-tier candidates (Carl Eller being one example), though the HoF is very specific that it's not supposed to count at all. If the voters are following the guidelines, though, that shouldn't matter. And part of the problem here is that some online posters use "character issues" as a basis to exclude people they don't happen to like (Deion Sanders, for one). It's also very interesting to hear about Jim Tyrer's case, that he may have suffered from chronic traumatic encephalopathy -- that might indeed have been true, though it's unlikely there would be brain tissue samples available to know for sure. If there happen to be tissue available, this should be looked at.

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  • Bee - October 11 2011 06:40 PM

    Mark Clayton deserves to be in The HOF. He is one of the reasons Dan Marino had such a great career. How is a quarterback in the Hall without at least one of his receivers? Mark Clayton is underated. He was what they call a small receiver but, did his job every Sunday. I respect all of the wide receivers that are nominated but, they played for years. They should have great stats. Clayton played for 11 and he had to share the ball with fellow teammate Mark Duper. Just think if he had all the passes thrown his way. Clayton and Marino are still #3 in Quarterback to Receiver Records. They set the standard for players like Montano and Rice and Manning and Harrison. . He's the all time best receiver for The Miami Doplhins Team.

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  • Mike K. - October 11 2011 04:37 AM

    Max, regarding Jim Tyrer, there are many who are starting to suspect that his murder/suicide and the depression that engendered it during his post-playing career were products of chronic traumatic encephalopathy, at least from what I've heard. If more evidence comes to light that Tyrer indeed suffered from this condition, the seniors committee may eventually come to view the later Tyrer as not the "real" him, but a product of dementia and brain degeneration, and take pity on him. It remains to be seen what will be uncovered regarding his life and decline in mental health.

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  • Mike K. - October 11 2011 04:30 AM

    Hey Bachslunch, I've seen various things you've written on a number of messageboards regarding Pro Football Hall of Fame candidates and guys who deserve to be in, and you seem very well-informed on the careers of many past greats. Being a guy who enjoys discussing players' hall worthiness/unworthiness, I thought I'd ask you about some players that seem, to me at least, to have HOF-worthy credentials, and who are not often mentioned by either writers or people commenting on forums. Some of the guys I mention are in the Seniors pool already. I'll limit this post to offensive players to keep it relatively short. QB: Nobody here; the two guys from the past who I feel are most deserving (Ken Anderson, Ken Stabler) are frequently mentioned by people, including you. RB: There don't seem to be many that people don't discuss who are worthy. I actually thought I'd ask you about two guys that don't get discussed THAT often, though: Ricky Watters and Chuck Foreman. I can understand voters' reluctance with Foreman, given his short career, and maybe he's not the strongest candidate. However, Watters seems to me like a guy who has a fairly legitimate case, especially when you consider that his total yards from scrimmage were quite high. He's number 20 on the all-time list in that category, 17 of the 19 guys ahead of him are HOFers or definitely will be, and the four guys immediately below him are also HOFers or most certainly destined for enshrinement. He was very consistent and had many statistically good years, too. WR: Most of the wide receivers that I feel are snubs are discussed often by people. Art Powell is not brought up often, though, and I think he might have been in already if it hadn't been for the fact that he played most of his years in the AFL (why is the Hall so reluctant to induct those types of guys, in general?). Not sure how Del Shofner isn't in already; unbelievably good numbers for the era in which he played. To name a couple modern guys, I wonder if Jimmy Smith or the newly eligible Rod Smith will get their due. Seems to me that unlike some guys with comparable overall career numbers, like, say, Muhsin Muhammad, Irving Fryar, or Keenan McCardell, these guys were much more dependable and consistent (Fryar and McCardell's numbers were products of long careers with only a few really great seasons, and Muhammad is a guy that had a few stellar seasons and many good, but not great ones). Keep in mind that Rod had Brian Griese and Jake Plummer throwing to him for many years, not just Elway, and that Jimmy had the good, but not great Mark Brunell and the mediocre Byron Leftwich in those years in Jacksonville. Despite their circumstances, both guys were consistently putting up 1000-yard, 70-reception seasons, both had two seasons of 100 catches or more, and both led the league in receptions one year apiece (they were both kind of like Art Monk, just with slightly shorter careers). Consistency is something that I think really ought to factor in when measuring WRs and their worth. TE: How about Ben Coates and Jay Novacek, the two best in the 90's behind only Shannon Sharpe? Pete Retzlaff was very good during the era he played in, as well. OL: Chris Hinton is a player that I have NEVER seen mentioned by anyone. You're talking about a guy who played multiple positions on the line, went to 7 pro bowls, which were divided between various positions, and earned AP All-Pro honors at two of them. He's almost analogous to Joe Klecko, only on the offensive line. Mike Kenn was a great tackle for a long time, and it's surprising he hasn't been seriously considered by the voters. Winston Hill is a guy that kept getting snubbed for first team all-pro, mainly because he played in an era with several other great OTs, but it seems you could make a pretty good argument for him. Ralph Neely seems to have had a similar problem, although he didn't make as many Pro Bowls as Hill (when you look at his career breakdown, his postseason honors pretty much dried up when the '70'****but he was still by many accounts quite excellent at his postition, and it seemed that he just kept getting edged out for various forms of recognition by those other tackles, Hill and his teammate Rayfield Wright included. It's sort of hard to tell with him, though, and I was hoping maybe you knew more about his career. Lomas Brown and Richmond Webb are guys that had similar careers, and who I would argue to both be deserving. Dick Schafrath is a guy from further back in time who's gotten unfairly overlooked. Why do centers, in general, have so much trouble? How about guys like Jeff Van Note, Jay Hilgenberg, Mark Stepnoski, Ray Donaldson, Tom Nalen, or even Kent Hull? At guard, why on earth has Steve Wisniewski had so little support thus far? The guy was easily one of the best at the position in his era. Does a guy like Nate Newton have a shot, or was he perhaps a hair less than great?

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  • Max - October 09 2011 11:15 PM

    Bachs - I agree with your rational points, but would point out that a players off-field actions most definitely have bearing on thier HOF consideration ( regardless of what they might say ). Let's take Jim Tyrer, who would easily be in had it not been for his tragic actions. That is a more extreme circumstance than L.T.'s, to be sure, but even using Big Daddy as an example - whom I believe belongs in Canton - and whose actions only hurt himself: Well, his controversial death came at a time when the HOF was very young so to this day any conversation regarding his playing days begin with that very topic. I get this. Common sense that would dictate suicidal murderers and players who OD are not the kind of players to represent the greatness of the game. Even players who had no off the field controvery are held off by personality alone. Really, 7 years before Art Monk was inducted?

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  • James - October 08 2011 08:46 PM

    Watching NFL network and tributes to Al Davis today. Even though I have never been a Raider Fan you had to respect Mr. Davis. Now to my comment, I am Amazed to see that Tom Flores is not already in as a two time Super Bowl winning Coach!! Now I see this year that Cower and Parcell's are eligible. It's time to get Flores in the Hall people!!

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  • bachslunch - October 06 2011 02:15 PM

    Bee, Mark Clayton has stats that look a lot like those of Mark Duper and Gary Clark, and while they're all good players, it's hard to see a HoF case for them over WRs such as Henry Ellard or Stanley Morgan. Nathan, Randy Cross only went to 3 pro bowls, not 7, and "rings" don't matter for OL HoF cases anyway -- I don't see a case for him. j espo, L.C. Greenwood is only eligible as Senior nowadays, not via the regular candidate route. Phil, Art Modell's HoF case has both good and bad issues to consider, and while he's got a better argument than another cut-and-run owner in Robert Irsay, I'm unsure if Modell's case has enough good to overshadow the bad. William L., whether Lawrence Taylor is a "Crack Head" or not has absolutely no bearing on his HoF worth, as the HoF's own guidelines stipulate that only on-field accomplishments are to be considered here.

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  • Phil - October 06 2011 11:28 AM

    I can't believe no one comments on Art Modell getting in the HOF. I'm a Pats fan for life; but, I'm also an NFL fan. Art Modell is one of the few reasons we are actually able to watch games on TV. He had an incredible positive impact on football and I think it's a a shame he won't be acknowledged simply because he chose to move a team from Cleveland (who wouldn't help him at all) to Baltimore. No one ever held that kind of grudge on the low life Irsay family who snuck out of Baltimore in the middle of the night. They left Baltimore for the same reasons the Modells left Cleveland. Art truly belongs in the HOF.

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  • Phil - October 06 2011 10:58 AM

    I can't believe no one comments on Art Modell getting in the HOF. I'm a Pats fan for life; but, I'm also an NFL fan. Art Modell is one of the few reasons we are actually able to watch games on TV. He had an incredible positive impact on football and I think it's a a shame he won't be acknowledged simply because he chose to move a team from Cleveland (who wouldn't help him at all) to Baltimore. No one ever held that kind of grudge on the low life Irsay family who snuck out of Baltimore in the middle of the night. They left Baltimore for the same reasons the Modells left Cleveland. Art truly belongs in the HOF.

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  • Nathan Heintz - October 05 2011 11:12 AM

    Why is it hall of fame voters do not like offensive linemen.Randy Cross of the 49ers won 4 super bowels and was a 7 time pro boweler at center and guard, yet is never mentioned.How can you not vote for someone with a record like that.

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  • j esposito - October 05 2011 07:40 AM

    STEELERS MR ROONEY WHY CANT YOU HELP LC GREENWOOD TO THE HALL OF FAME. HAS EVERYONE FOR GOTTEN WHAT HE DID FOR PITTSBURGH AND THE NFL WAKE UP PEOPLE.(SAD)

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  • william lowery - October 04 2011 02:37 PM

    Will Someone Please Tell Me Why # 31 Donnie Shell, 4 Time Superbowl Champion and Member of The Famed Pittsburgh Steelers 70's Steel Curtain Defense is Not in The Hall of Fame and Crack Head Lawrence Taylor is? Mr. Shell was a True Professional on and off the field and is deserving more than almost everyone that is being considered this year. Please Do The Right Thing and Elect Donnie Shell into The Hall of Fame!

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  • David - October 04 2011 10:57 AM

    Since the Hall of Fame means the best of the best I look at these players, coaches and administrators and support members and simply asked who would I select to be on my team... QB: Phil Simms RB: Eddie George & Roger Craig WR: Chris Carter & Tim Brown TE:Todd Christensen OF Line Hilgenberg and Jacoby DL: Klecko and Manly DB: Allen and Woodson Coaches Bill Parcells and Bud Adams Owner...Now just 7 out of these guys... QB: Phil Simms...Won a super bowl RB: Eddie George WR: Cris Carter DB: Allen and Woodson Coach : Bill Parcells Owner: Bud Adams

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  • David - October 04 2011 10:57 AM

    Since the Hall of Fame means the best of the best I look at these players, coaches and administrators and support members and simply asked who would I select to be on my team... QB: Phil Simms RB: Eddie George & Roger Craig WR: Chris Carter & Tim Brown TE:Todd Christensen OF Line Hilgenberg and Jacoby DL: Klecko and Manly DB: Allen and Woodson Coaches Bill Parcells and Bud Adams Owner...Now just 7 out of these guys... QB: Phil Simms...Won a super bowl RB: Eddie George WR: Cris Carter DB: Allen and Woodson Coach : Bill Parcells Owner: Bud Adams

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  • bachslunch - October 03 2011 01:49 PM

    Lots of things. First to Michael Shaw, excellent posts -- with you fully on what you say. Though I will say that in past years, more HoF qualified players than Richmond Webb (Randall McDaniel and Cortez Kennedy, for two) have somehow managed not to make this list when eligible -- who knows why it happens? And also agree with The Pro Football Hall of Fame's posts, many of these players being mentioned are now Senior-eligible only, not through the route above, and that includes all the Raiders names appearing in people's comments except Todd Christensen. For those eligible and mentioned above, agree with Sterling Sharpe, Terrell Davis, and Tony Boselli as players who might well merit a Gale Sayers type HoF exemption -- though note that the HoF committee voters have not historically been kind to post-1950s short-career players. Also think Darren Woodson and Donnie Shell have reasonable HoF arguments (but for safeties, so do Kenny Easley, Joey Browner, Stave Atawater, and Leroy Butler). Charles Haley, Tim Brown, and Andre Reed should be elected sooner or later. Not so taken with the candidacies of Dexter Manley, Gary Clark, Clay Matthews, Doug Flutie, Jessie Tuggle, or Reggie Roby as being quite at HoF level, though. Note that Warren Moon, Marv Levy, and Bud Grant were inducted based solely on what they did in the NFL -- the CFL has its own HoF -- so that lets Flutie out.

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  • Michael Shaw - October 02 2011 09:36 PM

    Names that should have been on the prelim list: Corey Dillon (11,241 rushing yds and 89 career TDs), Mark Bavaro, Irving Fryar (851 rec, 12,785 yds, 88 career TDs), Mark Duper, Richmond Webb, Mark Gastineau, Keith Millard, Greg Lloyd, Hardy Nickerson, Pat Swilling, Deron Cherry, Carnell Lake and Frank Minnifield. How was Webb snubbed with 7 Pro Bowls, 4 AP All-Pros (2 of them 1st team) and an All-Decade 1990s selection? The same also applies to Mark Stepnoski with 5 Pro Bowls, 3 2nd team All-Pros and the 2nd team center on the 1990s All-Decade team.

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  • Michael Shaw - October 02 2011 04:08 AM

    Names that should have been on the prelim list: Corey Dillon (11,241 rushing yds and 89 career TDs), Mark Bavaro, Irving Fryar (851 rec, 12,785 yds, 88 career TDs), Mark Duper, Richmond Webb, Mark Gastineau, Keith Millard, Greg Lloyd, Hardy Nickerson, Pat Swilling, Deron Cherry, Carnell Lake and Frank Minnifield. How was Webb snubbed with 7 Pro Bowls, 4 AP All-Pros (2 of them 1st team) and an All-Decade 1990s selection? The same also applies to Mark Stepnoski with 5 Pro Bowls, 3 2nd team All-Pros and the 2nd team center on the 1990s All-Decade team.

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  • Michael Shaw - October 02 2011 03:21 AM

    Darnell, All those Raiders players you mentioned, Stabler, Plunkett, Guy and Hayes are now part of the Seniors category. This list is the modern era candidates - players who retired from 1987 onwards. That's why you don't see their name listed. Bobby - Tony Mayberry went to 3 Pro Bowls and was never an All-Pro or All-Conference selection. Do you honestly think that merits consideration for the Hall of Fame. Same for Logan and his 1 All-NFL Sporting News selection and zero Pro Bowls. Gruber was an underrated player but again had only 1 AP 2nd team All-Pro selection in 1992. Compare that to the resume of HOFer Bruce Matthews and future HOFers Larry Allen, Dermontti Dawson, Willie Roaf, Jon Ogden and Will Shields with multiple 1st team All Pros/Pro Bowls and All-Decade selections. And if there's one TE who should have been nominated its Mark Bavaro and not Giles.

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  • Bobby - October 01 2011 01:19 PM

    K Im back with plenty more to say whats up lol. As far as the list is concerned Tight ends,Maybe Wycheck goes, the others Coates,Christensen both good but not great. Heres name that should of already been in from my Bucs Jimmie Giles! he was awesome!!. Offensive Line What about Paul Gruber??? Tony Mayberry??? On there list I think Boselli was awesome but he was injured all threw out his career so I dont think he gets in, Lomas Brown,Demitri Dawson,Will Shields maybe Joe Jacoby get in some day. Defensive Line- Doleman,Haley,Mann,Manley get in some day. What about David Logan??? Linbackers on the list well Harvey and Mills will get in some day,Greene and the others were good but I dont think great. The list of Dbs is strong this year,Butler,A****er,Vincent,Williams,Woodson should get in. Let me tell you if Woodson gets in then there should be no questions when John Lynch's name comes up cause both were hard hitters same kind of style dbs.I think we should finally put kickers in the hof. The Coaches on the list Definitley Marty and Cowher,Knox,Bud Carson,Dan Reeves, and Dick Vermiel and Parcels. Jimmie Johnson no way was he a great coach. He gets more credit than he deserves for cowboys of the 90s. Look what happen when he coached the Dolphins lost in the wild crad of 99. When it comes to Coaches Its importamt to also notice how a team does after the coach leaves team because I think that coach still deserves credit for puting that team together even after he laeves,Example 1-Parcels,Example 2 Dan Reeves,Example 3 Dick Vermiel. Thats it for me Im out

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  • Bobby - October 01 2011 12:33 PM

    K the list of nominees there are some pretty good names on there but I have to agree with many of the others in saying that the list is weak this year. Bledsoe and Simms Good but great and you have to be great to be inducted into the Hall. I agree with Raider Nation in that Stabler should be in.Tiki no way,now his brother Ronde should be first time go when his career is all said and done. Bettis aka The Bus was good but great. Out of all those RBs on the list Hershel should have already been in and maybe Terrell Davis. Now for Recievers,Reed and Tasker should have already been in. Tasker was dominate on Special Teams. Tim Brown,Chris Carter,Sterling Sharpe,Rod Smith,and Gary Clark should also go in. Ive been a Bucs all my life and every year theres a list of nominees and very rarely is there any of them who have ever worn a Bucs uniform thats a crime the only one we have in the Hall is Lee Roy. Now he is Keyshawn on the list and even Im gonna say that there is no way that dude should go in. Key was good but not great plus he was lazy and had a bad attitude his entire career terrible teammate with his teams Jets,Bucs,Cowboys and what is football??? A Team Sport!! No way on Keyshawn.

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  • jim - October 01 2011 10:04 AM

    Three guys that should be in,but they played on some BAD(with the exception of one year)teams.Jessie Tuggle,Tommy Nobis,and Claude Humphrey.

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  • Marc - October 01 2011 09:42 AM

    I'm waiting for the day where a kicker or punter gets accepted to the Hall of Fame. No modern day NFL punter or kicker has the leg that Reggie Roby did. If and when a kicker/punter get accepted, all the haters will come out of the wood works and start bashing the NFL for not putting who they wanted accepted, in. But when it comes to Running Backs, I believe that all should be put in at sometime. "The Bus", Curtis Martin, and Terrell Davis should have been in last year.

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  • Jim Higgins - September 30 2011 09:08 PM

    Where's Doug Flutie? The man's played 20 seasons and is #6 in all time passing yards in PRO football. This is the PRO football hall of fame right? If Marv Levy's CFL coaching stats can be counted, and Warren Moon's CFL stats can be....Doug's should also be considered. Wherever he went, he just won

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  • Ira Rogers - September 30 2011 04:33 PM

    No Ken Stabler, remember when it was the "GAME" and not the commericals people watched and talked about. The "Snake" made a lot of people Football Fans, not just Raiders, Oilers or Saints Fans!

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  • Scott - September 30 2011 09:52 AM

    I'm happy that the list of first time eligible players is weak. It gives Bills WR Andre Reed a good chance to get in. If Reed doesn't get in in 2012 it will only get harder because in 2013 the first time eligible list includes Larry Allen, Morten Andersen, Jonathan Ogden, Warren Sapp, Michael Strahan and Bryant Young.

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  • Travis - September 29 2011 12:39 PM

    As long as Modell doesn't get in (ever) I don't care. The uproar in Canton would be ridiculous, security would be at an all-time high.

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  • Steve - September 29 2011 12:29 PM

    For the most part, this is an extremely weak ballot. But what is weaker still are the names on the press release. Tiki Barber? Ha! There are far more worthy names not on the ballot than those that are. Some on the ballot are worthy. But not the names on the press release. Not Barber. Not Bledsoe. Not Vincent. Parcells, yes. But non one else. And where is Ray Guy? This ballot will discredit the hall for years to come. Kind of like having Donna Summer on the Rock & Roll hall of fame ballot.

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  • The Pro Football Hall of Fame - September 29 2011 10:58 AM

    Be sure to check out our selection process page for more information. Many of these comments are mentioning players who now fall under the Seniors category. This list is for Modern-Era preliminary nominees. Also, there is no limit on eligibility.

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  • linda lewis - September 29 2011 10:55 AM

    I can't blieve that the Hall of Fame Commitee has never voted for Clay Mathews to be in the Hall of Fame. He is one of those players that should of been put in the HOF years ago. His brother Bruce even said so when he gave his speech that his brother should of been in before him. I cannot believe they cannor see what kind of a great player he was Linda

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  • The Pro Football Hall of Fame - September 29 2011 10:54 AM

    Be sure to check out our selection process page for more information. Many of these comments are mentioning players who now fall under the Seniors category. This list is for Modern-Era preliminary nominees. Also, there is no limit on eligibility.

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  • Darnell - September 29 2011 10:35 AM

    Wow, how biased against the Raiders can you be. Ray Guy, Lester Hayes, Cliff Branch and Ken Stabler not even on the list. Bledsoe and Sims over Ken Stabler, give me a break. Stabler was feared during his era, Bledsoe and Sims were just very good QBs. All of these Raiders also have rings. While most consider Jason Whitten a shoe in for the Hall of Fame, just saw a stat that shows (even in a less pass happy era) that Todd Christenson still had more receiving yards in a four year period than any Tight End in NFL history, but he has not even come close to getting in. What about 2-time Super Bowl winners Tom Flores and Jim Plunkett - not even on the preliminary nominee list. Bob Hayes in but Cliff Branch not even on the list? By what criteria does the committee use to make that decision? Can't be statistics or Super Bowl Rings.

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  • Darnell - September 29 2011 10:31 AM

    Wow, how biased against the Raiders can you be. Ray Guy, Lester Hayes, Cliff Branch and Ken Stabler not even on the list. Bledsoe and Sims over Ken Stabler, give me a break. Stabler was feared during his era, Bledsoe and Sims were just very good QBs. All of these Raiders also have rings. While most consider Jason Whitten a shoe in for the Hall of Fame, just saw a stat that shows (even in a less pass happy era) that Todd Christenson still had more receiving yards in a four year period than any Tight End in NFL history, but he has not even come close to getting in. What about 2-time Super Bowl winners Tom Flores and Jim Plunkett - not even on the preliminary nominee list. Bob Hayes in but Cliff Branch not even on the list? By what criteria does the committee use to make that decision? Can't be statistics or Super Bowl Rings.

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  • cvlaura - September 29 2011 10:23 AM

    Everybody complaining about who's NOT on the list - do something about it. Anybody can nominate a player. Just send a letter to the HOF. After that, of course, it's up to the selectors to vote - but YOU can nominate your choice. Once a player is nominated, he does not appear on the ballot every year automatically. You need to nominate again each year. GO BIG DADDY!

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  • Darnell - September 29 2011 10:21 AM

    Wow, how biased against the Raiders can you be. Ray Guy, Lester Hayes, Cliff Branch and Ken Stabler not even on the list. Bledsoe and Sims over Ken Stabler, give me a break. Stabler was feared during his era, Bledsoe and Sims were just very good QBs. All of these Raiders also have rings. While most consider Jason Whitten a shoe in for the Hall of Fame, just saw a stat that shows (even in a less pass happy era) that Todd Christenson still had more receiving yards in a four year period than any Tight End in NFL history, but he has not even come close to getting in. What about 2-time Super Bowl winners Tom Flores and Jim Plunkett - not even on the preliminary nominee list. Bob Hayes in but Cliff Branch not even on the list? By what criteria does the committee use to make that decision? Can't be statistics or Super Bowl Rings.

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  • JKMASTER - September 29 2011 09:34 AM

    I can not believe that the great Cliff Branch is not on this list! It is a crime that the powers to be leave Branch off. His stats blew away Swann, Stalworth and Art Monk all of who played in his ERA! Cliff has 3 superbowl rings and was feared and still owns the longest average per catch in the NFL! He created the YAK! Give me a freaken break! The HOF Committee is a freaken JOKE!

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  • Ron myler - September 29 2011 07:42 AM

    Tim Brown should have been a first time selection he is in the top 10 and top 5 in how many categories and he did it with 21 different quarter backs like Marinavich, Schrader, Hostetler, Hollis, Wilson. Also only player to go to same pro bowl in two positions wide reliever and kick returner also oldest guy to return a punt for a to touchdown. Was class act of NFL give him Montana, Young, and Gannon he would have been number one

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  • Rasputin - September 29 2011 03:06 AM

    Darren Woodson is unsung but Canton worthy. Converted from college LB to NFL SS, he was one of the hardest hitters in the league throughout his career and good enough in coverage to shut down slot receivers and elite TEs 1 on 1. He "only" made 5 Pro Bowls and 3 first team All Pro selections, but deserved those honors several more years. He was a reliable stalwart who was critical to the Cowboys' Super Bowl run and keeping their defense consistently in the top 10 long after the talent around him eroded. He's the all time Dallas Cowboys tackles leaders, and that's a franchise with a storied history of defensive talent.

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  • Grant - September 28 2011 11:41 PM

    Sterling Sharpe consistently demonstrated Hall of Fame achievement every season of his memorable career. For years, he dominated defenses despite a mediocre pre-Favre Packer offense that allowed defenses to focus on trying to stop him. Year after year, his stats showcased his contributions as he accomplished more at each stage of his career than the legendary Jerry Rice... more catches for more yards at comparable experience levels. He inspired teammates with toughness and charisma and the Packers became competitive again (prior to Holmgren and Favre) with Sharpe as the team MVP year after year. His early departure from the league meant that he would have to watch his former teammates on their drive to the Super Bowl. As much as I admire Shannon Sharpe, Sterling was clearly a superior player and he absolutely belongs in the Hall.

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  • Steven Sipe - September 28 2011 11:23 PM

    Charles Haley and Clay Matthews are the two that get overlooked every year its time they get what they deserve

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  • richard a blank - September 28 2011 08:53 PM

    It is a shame and injustice that johnny robinson, k c chiefs, isn't even on the list. Check his stats.

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  • Richard McCarty - September 28 2011 08:01 PM

    I will make the following comments as succinct as I can. I will not attempt to describe my nearly indescribable passion for the game and those who play it,yet I continue to be more confused each year as the name of Ray Guy is not among the annual list of new inductees. I have been,personally,one of the most ardent,loyal and passionate Pittsburgh Steelers fans of all time just as I have a loathsome hatred of the Raiders, all of which came to fruition during their nearly annual meetings in the 1970's. All of this,however,does not honor Guy's contribution not only to the game but his enduring legacy at the time he played as well as afterwards. Many will point out that even Guy is not among the all-time leaders statistically at his position, which would be similar to saying that Gordie Howe would always lose a head on confrontation in hockey against Wayne Gretzky, despite the fact that both of these men made great contributions to their sport even while playing in different eras. It is true that Guy, as a punter, was not always on the field to the same degree as other greats just as it is also true that Ray Guy changed the game forever. He was the first pure punter to be drafted in the 1st round(in 1974) and was also the emergency QB for the Raiders. I am aware that ones efforts in regards to the Pro Football Hall of Fame come from their impact in the NFL game. Having said all of this it should be noteworthy that Guy sacrificed for his team,a large reason why he is not among the more modern-era players whose statistical and dominating play seem to do injustice to a player and marvelous overall athlete who in college had a 100-mph fastball,threw a no-hitter just weeks after surgery for his baseball team at Southern Mississippi,was listed as one of the best safeties in the country(once hitting an opposing player so hard that play was stopped for 20-minutes to look for the other players teeth),kicking a field goal of over 60 yards in a snowstorm on the road in Utah,as well as having once boomed a punt in college of 93-yards that actually went more than 115 yards. It is also true that dominant play in college should not factor in when it comes to NFL comparisons,where Guy had a normal hangtime of more than 4-seconds and sometimes more than 5-seconds. Such talents and revolutionary contributions to the game would lead to more concentration to special teams and to the rest of team rosters in the league. Keep in mind also that Oakland had never won a Super Bowl prior to the arrival of Ray Guy. They won three during his career of more than a dozen years. They have yet to win a Super Bowl since he retired. All of this from the most loyal Steeler fan ever who nonetheless roots for someone to clear things up and add to the list of all-time greats that of Ray Guy. What a guy.

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  • john bivona - September 28 2011 07:21 PM

    need to see sterling sharpe hit the hall next, his brother is right for a 7 year carrer he was as good as they get!!!! look at how short gale sayers carrer was!! Its only fare you give sterling his day. HE EARNED IT EVERY SUNDAY.

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  • mel - September 28 2011 06:56 PM

    Hopefully dexter Manley and/or Gary Clark make it, though I doubt that they will!

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