Class of 2012 semifinalists

11/22/2011

Two first-year eligible candidates, coach Bill Parcells and guard Will Shields, are among the 26 semifinalists being considered for the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s Class of 2012. Although technically a first-year eligible candidate, Parcells has been a finalist twice before (2001, 2002) following his announced retirement as head coach of the New York Jets in 1999. At the time the Hall of Fame By-laws did not require a coach to be retired the now mandatory five seasons. Parcells returned to coach the Dallas Cowboys in 2003 and the five-year waiting period was in effect when he retired from coaching in 2006.

The semifinalist list is usually limited to 25, this year there are 26 resulting from a tie for the final position. The Pro Football Hall of Fame By-laws for the Selection Committee provides that the list shall consist of “twenty five nominees plus all ties.”

The Hall of Fame’s Selection Committee chose the 26 semifinalists from the previously announced list of 105 preliminary nominees. In addition to the two first-year eligible nominees, four other previously eligible candidates, Steve Atwater, Clay Matthews, Karl Mecklenburg and longtime contributor Ron Wolf have made it to the semifinalist’s list for the first time. Each of the remaining 20 nominees on the Selection Committee’s list has been a semifinalist at least once prior to this year.

The complete list of 26 modern-era semifinalists is as follows:

Steve Atwater, S – 1989-1998 Denver Broncos, 1999 New York Jets
Jerome Bettis, RB – 1993-95 Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, 1996-2005 Pittsburgh Steelers
Tim Brown, WR/KR – 1988-2003 Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders, 2004 Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Cris Carter, WR – 1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins
Don Coryell, Coach – 1973-77 St. Louis Cardinals, 1978-1986 San Diego Chargers
Roger Craig, RB – 1983-1990 San Francisco 49ers, 1991 Los Angeles Raiders, 1992-93 Minnesota Vikings
Terrell Davis, RB – 1995-2001 Denver Broncos
Dermontti Dawson, C – 1988-2000 Pittsburgh Steelers
Edward DeBartolo, Jr., Owner – 1979-2000 San Francisco 49ers
Chris Doleman, DE/LB – 1985-1993, 1999 Minnesota Vikings, 1994-95 Atlanta Falcons, 1996-98 San Francisco 49ers
Kevin Greene, LB/DE – 1985-1992 Los Angeles Rams, 1993-95 Pittsburgh Steelers, 1996, 1998-99 Carolina Panthers, 1997 San Francisco 49ers
Charles Haley, DE/LB – 1986-1991, 1999 San Francisco 49ers, 1992-96 Dallas Cowboys
Cortez Kennedy, DT – 1990-2000 Seattle Seahawks
Curtis Martin, RB – 1995-97 New England Patriots, 1998-2005 New York Jets
Clay Matthews, LB – 1978-1993 Cleveland Browns, 1994-96 Atlanta Falcons
Karl Mecklenburg, LB – 1983-1994 Denver Broncos
Bill Parcells, Coach – 1983-1990 New York Giants, 1993-96 New England Patriots, 1997-99 New York Jets, 2003-06 Dallas Cowboys
Andre Reed, WR – 1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000 Washington Redskins
Willie Roaf, T – 1993-2001 New Orleans Saints, 2002-05 Kansas City Chiefs
Donnie Shell, S – 1974-1987 Pittsburgh Steelers
Will Shields, G – 1993-2006 Kansas City Chiefs
Paul Tagliabue, Commissioner – 1989-2006 National Football League
Steve Tasker, ST/WR – 1985-86 Houston Oilers, 1986-1997 Buffalo Bills
Aeneas Williams, CB/S – 1991-2000 Phoenix/Arizona Cardinals, 2001-04 St. Louis Rams
Ron Wolf, Contributor – 1963-1974, 1978-1990 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders, 1975-77 Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 1990 New York Jets, 1991 -2001 Green Bay Packers
George Young, Contributor – 1968-1974 Baltimore Colts, 1975-78 Miami Dolphins, 1979-1997 New York Giants, 1998-2001 National Football League

David Elfin, the Redskins Insider for WUSA-9 in Washington, is in his seventh year as a member of the Hall of Fame’s Selection Committee. He shared his thoughts regarding the selection process.

Serving as selector is an incredible honor. LISTEN>>>

The addition in 2004 of reducing to a list of semifinalists is good for the process. LISTEN>>>

There’s plenty of more work ahead in preparation for the selection meeting held the day before the Super Bowl. LISTEN>>>

You can find Elfin on Twitter @davidelfin.

The list of 26 semifinalists will be reduced by mail ballot to 15 modern-era finalists. That list increases to 17 finalist nominees with the inclusion of the two recommended candidates of the Hall of Fame’s Seniors Committee. The Seniors Committee nominees, who were announced in August, are cornerback Jack Butler, Pittsburgh Steelers (1951-59) and guard Dick Stanfel, Detroit Lions (1952-55); Washington Redskins (1956-58).

The results of the modern-era reduction vote to 15 finalists will be announced in early January, 2012.

To be considered for election to the Pro Football Hall of Fame, a nominated player or coach must not have participated as an active player or coach for five consecutive seasons. A contributor, who is a nominee who has made outstanding contributions to pro football in capacities other than playing and coaching, may still be active in his pro football career.

Join the conversation about the semifinalists. Tweet your thoughts and opinions and tag them with #PFHOF12.

Although there is no set number of Enshrinees for any Hall of Fame Class, the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s current ground rules do stipulate that between four and seven new members will be selected each year. No more than five modern-era nominees can be elected in a given year and a class of six or seven Enshrinees can only be achieved if one or both senior nominees are elected.

The Class of 2012 will be determined at the Selection Committee's annual meeting on Saturday, February 4, in Indianapolis, Indiana the day before Super Bowl XLVI. The election results will be announced during a one-hour NFL Network special, live from the Super Bowl media headquarters.

Class of 2012 Semifinalists - career capsules>>>


More from Profootballhof.com:

Semifinalists, 2004-2011
Selection process
2012 Preliminary Nominees
Butler, Stanfel named Senior Nominees
VIDEO: Joe Horrigan explains the selection process
PHOTOS: Semifinalists for the Class of 2012


Recent Comments
  • deeporange - August 06 2012 12:42 AM

    Past time for Chris Carter to make the walk up to the podium. I know he was unpopular in is playing days for his controversies and falls from grace. But nobody can deny the ability of the man and his willingness, late in his career, to give all that he had to win games, including lead and mentor younger players. An eminently worthy selectee.

    reported

  • bachslunch - June 05 2012 02:17 PM

    Douglas, if you're going to argue for Roger Craig for the HoF, you're going to have to stump just as hard for Herschel Walker. They were close contemporaries of each other and have very similar lifetime rushing and receiving stats. Walker has a load of kick return yards Craig doesn't have, while Craig has slightly better postseason honors (which reflects his one 1000/1000 year) which gives him a bit of an edge on peak value. I don't see any real difference here.

    Report Violation

  • Douglas R. Haney - March 17 2012 07:55 PM

    Your'e kidding right? Roger Craig was one of the most infamous running backs in 49er and NFL history since OJ, and he has not been chosen for the Hall of Fame? Incredible! Instrumental in 3-Super Bowls,4-Pro Bowls, was in a in NFL Playoffs every year of his career, having broken multiple combined running and receiving records, spanning a glorious 10-year consistent mega-professional quality, and he did not make the 2012 Hall cut? With the quality representative of the NFL that he has exhibited this is a disgrace of the voting body, not Mr. Craig. Without a doubt, end this disgrace in its tracks and vote this man into the Hall in 2013. Look at it, OJ sits in prison while someone with outstanding quality of humanitarianism inside the NFL and publicly away from the sport goes unrecognized for his great and fantastic feats. It is time to rectify this situation in 2013.

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - February 15 2012 03:04 PM

    tony, Ken Stabler is not eligible as a regular candidate anymore, only as a Senior -- and as to why he isn't in, see my exchange with poster SSR below. Goodie, Charles Haley didn't get in this year among other things because Cortez Kennedy has been eligible longer (seniority) and Chris Doleman has better lifetime sack numbers and postseason honors -- and some HoF voters are on record as saying that they don't care about the "5 rings" argument for him or presumably any other defensive player. deeporange, Cris (note spelling) Carter is caught in a numbers logjam with Andre Reed and Tim Brown -- it's unlikely personality has much to do with his case, though his whining when he wasn't elected "first ballot" likely didn't sit too well with HoF voters. Ben, no player or coach is eligible for HoF consideration until five years after they retire -- so like everyone else, Brett Favre (note spelling) will have to wait until then.

    Report Violation

  • Ben - February 14 2012 05:19 PM

    Bret farve finally retired last year why not nominate him before even that is too late! next year hopefully...RIGHT?

    reported

  • Goodie - February 14 2012 05:04 PM

    Absolute BS that Charles Haley does not get in again...unreal

    Report Violation

  • tony - February 11 2012 11:56 PM

    why in the world is ken stabler not in the hall?

    reported

  • bachslunch - January 27 2012 03:58 PM

    Sorry smithdad, but when comparing Charlie Conerly to Y.A. Tittle, there's no question who the better regular season QB was. Kiran Rasaretnam's period-adjusted passer ratings, for example, rank Tittle's "best 4 years/best 7 years/best 10 years" all time as 12th/9th/7th and Conerly's as 38th/36th/23rd. And while Tittle did not have postseason success, there are several other HoF QBs in the same boat such as Sonny Jurgensen, Fran Tarkenton, Dan Fouts, and Dan Marino. Menawhile, Conerly's one NFL Championship game win with this level of adjusted stats isn't even as good a HoF argument as the ones Joe Theismann or Ken Stabler have. I don't think Conerly has much of a HoF argument, frankly.

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - January 27 2012 03:43 PM

    Comments: gary, once again ad infinitum, Ray Guy is not eligible anymore via this route -- he's Senior eligible only. Doug, agreed that Dermontti Dawson is HoF worthy, but it's not unusual for centers to wait a long time before they get elected -- see Jim Ringo, for example. DFF, agree that Karl Mecklenburg has a very good HoF argument -- and I think he should be in, as his postseason honors are at elite level for a middle/inside LB of the time at 4(3AP)/6/none. But Tom Jackson is only Senior eligible and his 1(1AP)/3/none profile is too small for a good HoF case -- Randy Gradishar has a much better Senior-eligible Broncos LB argument at 4(2AP)/7/none. The problem bogging down Terrell Davis is his very short career, while the HoF tends not to like safeties much, which doesn't help Steve Atawater any. Given this, I'm hard-pressed to see evidence of East Coast bias here. Les, agreed that Herschel Walker has a better HoF case than one might think, especially when looking at all-purpose yard career totals, but given how weak the competition was in the USFL, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the numbers he put up while there aren't being considered part of his argument.

    Report Violation

  • Donkeys Fan Forever - January 20 2012 11:22 PM

    T.D., The Beast A****er, but before them you have to put in Karl The Meck and Tommy Jackson. East coast disagree all you want, but Phil Simms wouldn't.

    Report Violation

  • Doug - January 18 2012 01:51 PM

    I am surprised at the lack of support for Dermontti Dawson, one of the premier offensive linemen of his time, a credit to his predecessors on the Steelers line and an outstanding human being! But then, he was on the offensive line, as opposed to defense of running back, so I guess it's not all that surprising after all.

    Report Violation

  • Les - January 16 2012 07:39 AM

    HERSHEL WALKER! Why is he not in? This is the Pro Football Hall of Fame, isn't it? Until Hershel Walker is inducted, the Hall is a joke. Sad.

    reported

  • Les - January 16 2012 07:38 AM

    HERSHEL WALKER! Why is he not in? This is the Pro Football Hall of Fame, isn't it? Until Hershel Walker is inducted, the Hall is a joke. Sad.

    reported

  • Les - January 16 2012 07:38 AM

    HERSHEL WALKER! Why is he not in? This is the Pro Football Hall of Fame, isn't it? Until Hershel Walker is inducted, the Hall is a joke. Sad.

    reported

  • Luisito - January 14 2012 02:09 AM

    please i hope curtis martin goes in, we need more jets in the hall! I mean has anyone forgotten joe klecko and mark gastineau leading the ny sack exchange! Gotta put more jets in there

    Report Violation

  • gary skyler - January 13 2012 12:07 PM

    what does it take to gey ray guy in.

    Report Violation

  • gary skyler - January 13 2012 12:06 PM

    come on man ray guy

    Report Violation

  • gary skyler - January 13 2012 12:06 PM

    ray guy please!!

    reported

  • gary skyler - January 13 2012 12:05 PM

    ray guy

    Report Violation

  • gary skyler - January 13 2012 12:04 PM

    ray guy ray guy ray guy ray guy ray guy ray guy ray guy put him in !!

    Report Violation

  • smithdad - January 11 2012 01:32 PM

    Charlie Conerly did everything Y.A. Tittle did and more. Conerly actually won an NFL Championship. As much as he would like to think so Frank Gifford did not win that game by himself. Until the Committee elects Conerly, Jerry Kramer, and Kenny Stabler I won't take them seriously. What a JOKE!!!!!!!!!!

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - January 09 2012 09:50 AM

    tdblja, I'm not at all in favor of having players participate in PFHoF voting -- and for the reason why, take a look at the often sorry track record of the Veteran's Committee for the Baseball Hall, mainly made up of former players. While this group has indeed put in some overlooked folks who deserve HoF membership (Arky Vaughan, Ron Santo, Johnny Mize, George Davis, Frank Selee) they have also elected a lot of terrible crony picks (Frankie Frisch alone was responsible for shoehorning in a bunch of his drinking buddy teammates who number among that Hall's worst choices, including Highpockets Kelly, Ross Youngs, Chick Hafey, and Jesse Haines). Given the comments I've seen from former NFL players about who they think should be in, it's clear they'd take the same crony teammate approach.

    Report Violation

  • Ray - January 09 2012 08:54 AM

    It is incredulous and bordering on maddening that one of the greatest guards in NFL history is STILL not in the HoF. Jerry Kramer was named a starting guard in “The Ultimate Super Bowl 40 Man Roster”, the 40th anniversary all-time Super Bowl team. Kramer was named to the NFL’s All-Decade team for the 1960's. He was the ONLY guard selected for the NFL’s 50th Anniversary all-time team. Incredulously, Kramer is the ONLY player on that that team that is NOT a member of the Pro Football Hall-of-Fame. In addition, his book, "instant Replay" brought a lot of publicity to the league when it was so desperate for it. Jerry's omission is truly heinous!

    Report Violation

  • George - January 07 2012 04:11 PM

    T. Brown, J. Bettis, C. Carter, A Williams, B, Parcells +++

    Report Violation

  • Diamond-Cutter - January 07 2012 11:41 AM

    Willie Roaf is a 1st Team all 1990's Decade and 2nd Team All 2000 Decade. He is an 11 time Pro Bowler. One of the most dominating players ever at his position. He is an obvious choice and should have made it last year. Dawson, Martin,Carter, and Bettis should join Roaf in being selected this year.

    Report Violation

  • tdblja - January 06 2012 10:03 PM

    How can the selection committee be nothing but news people. Has anyone on the selection committee ever played a down of football to actually know what they're voting for? Unless I'm missing something, shouldn't those who actually know what it takes to create and/or break a record to win or loose a game, be included in the voting? Makes no freakin' sense to me!!!

    reported

  • chris - January 06 2012 01:24 PM

    my predictions on who will make the 15 finalists list for the pro football hall of fame class of 2012: jerome bettis tim brown cris carter roger craig dermontti dawson chris doleman charles haley cortez kennedy curtis martin bill parcells andre reed willie roaf will shields steve tasker paul tagliabue

    reported

  • bachslunch - January 05 2012 01:09 PM

    Cliff Branch, Ray Guy, and Jerry Kramer are not eligible via the regular route anymore, only as Seniors.

    reported

  • V. DeMaria - January 04 2012 02:19 PM

    When is Joe Klecko getting in ? Selected to the Pro Bowl at three separate positions !! A travesty !!!!!!

    reported

  • V. DeMaria - January 04 2012 02:18 PM

    When is Joe Klecko getting in ? Selected to the Pro Bowl at three separate positions !! A travesty !!!!!!

    Report Violation

  • Larry - January 04 2012 01:44 PM

    If any receiver gets voted in before Clifford Branch, the voters, the voting process, and the HOF are a sad joke. Look at the numbers of the WR's from Cliff's era and how he matches up. Look at his yards per catch, look at his numbers in the playoffs. Lynn Swan is in and Cliff Branch isn't! What a joke. Statistically speaking, he owns Swann in the regular season, Swann has 4 Super Bowl Rings, Branch has 3....The voters always kick and scream when someone suggests there is anti Raider bias in the voting community, but it plays out in the votes year after year. Speed Kills 21! Vote Cliff branch in!!

    Report Violation

  • Eileen P - January 04 2012 01:38 PM

    Being a die hard Raiders fan for almost 40 years, I wholeheartedly agree with Raider Card Addict. It breaks my heart not to see Ray Guy get into the Hall of Fame. The committee needs to expand their horizon and start including the punters and kickers. They are part of the team that contributed to the team's success, more so than an owner, unless you are Al Davis. They shouldn't be judging the nominees by their personal lives, but on their playing the game. It shouldn't be a popularity contest or if they are overdue for an award, like the Oscars. So as far as this year's list goes, there are only a few that I would definitely consider, Bill Parcells, Charles Haley, Tim Brown, Andre Reed, Jerome Bettis. There are a couple of alternates if necessary. Personally, I have met quite a few of the Raiders team players over the years at autograph signings in NJ, they are all gracious, humble, personable and very friendly to the fans. Not to be too biased, hats off to the Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders they will always be in my Football Hall of Fame. The committee has overlooked many of my Raider players over the years, Stabler, Hayes, Guy etc., what is going to happen 10 years down the road, how do you overlook Sebastian Janokowski? All I can say, is Good Luck to the nominees.

    Report Violation

  • Mark - January 04 2012 01:22 PM

    Next Year will be the 50 years reunion of the 1962 Champion Green Bay Packers. Jerry Kramer played guard and blocked for the great Jimmy Taylor and and Paul Hornung in New York on a day below freezing and 40 mile winds. He also kicked three field goals and a PAT because Hoenung was injured and could not kick. It would be so right to finally put Jerry Kramer into the Pro Football Hall Of Fame!!

    reported

  • ryan - January 03 2012 09:06 PM

    I think a vast majority of the guys on this list will get in in the next 5-7 years. But with the 4-7 a year deal. Here are my 7 in order...and as I said before...MANY of these guys deserve the bid. Curtis Martin is the one name that just sticks out above and beyond the rest of these great players...the numbers,durability and longevity of his career are just astonishing. So that being said, Curtis Martin Cris Carter Donnie Shell Jerome Bettis Willie Roaf Chris Doleman Tim Brown

    reported

  • ryan - January 03 2012 09:05 PM

    I think a vast majority of the guys on this list will get in in the next 5-7 years. But with the 4-7 a year deal. Here are my 7 in order...and as I said before...MANY of these guys deserve the bid. Curtis Martin is the one name that just sticks out above and beyond the rest of these great players...the numbers,durability and longevity of his career are just astonishing. So that being said, Curtis Martin Cris Carter Donnie Shell Jerome Bettis Willie Roaf Chris Doleman Tim Brown

    Report Violation

  • Tim - January 03 2012 12:14 AM

    The players I think that should be voted in this year are. Kevin Greene leads in sacks all time for LB was the poster child for the 3-4 OLB he is why it is used today as much as it is, should have been already in makes no sense he is not yet. Charles Haley More rings than any other defensive player and was a major part on his teams when they did win the rings. Jerome Bettis The BUS nothing more needs to be said Tim Brown and Chris Carter last 2 spots and they should also have not had to wait this long.

    Report Violation

  • STEVE - January 02 2012 01:59 PM

    Response to RASPUTIN...RE: 1000+ Rushing Yard Seasons........>> You are absolutely correct and I should have clarified that statement when I posted it. Emmitt with out a doubt is one of the greatest RB's to EVER play. And I say that as a fan of the game (even though it pains me to admit to be a lifelong NY Jets fan! lol) However, I will stand by my arguemeny that Curtis Martin belongs in the Hall of Fame. He played on some (less than desirable offensive lines) teams and still managed to put up amazing numbers. The record of rushing for 1000+ Yards for 10 consecutive seasons starting from their rookie year only Curtis Martin and Barry Sanders are the ONLY to players to do so in NFL history. Oddly enough, it saddens me to think that withsome of the amazing talent at running back we have seen over the past decade with some players making astronomical money just can't stay healthy. The ONLY active player that has a chance to tie or break the record is Chris Johnson. He currently has 4 Consecutive 1000+ Rushing yards starting from his rookie season. Current other greats also fell short: Adrian Peterson, LaDainian Tomlinson, Frank Gore, Rashad Mendenhall, Ray Rice, Mo Jo, Steven Jackson, Reggie Bush and the list goes on and on. I feel if Arian Foster can stay healthy he might be the #1 Rusher of All Time by the end of his career but still won't break the record of Curtis Martin and Barry Sanders. Lastly, yes I am a bit bias being a Jets fan but more importantly I am a fan of football and I truly feel from the bottom of my heart that Curtis Martin has earned the right to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. I can't wait to see how everything unfolds! The suspense is killing me!!!! Be well, Steve

    Report Violation

  • Rasputin - January 01 2012 03:15 PM

    Chuck Howley should be the senior committee's top priority next year, but this thread is about modern era players.

    Report Violation

  • Rasputin - January 01 2012 03:06 PM

    Steve, I know that Smith fell just short of a 1000 rushing yards in his rookie season (and just short in his 13th season) and figured that's probably what you meant, but I was responding to the post where you said...."Also, ONLY Curtis Martin and the great Barry Sanders are the ONLY two players in NFL History to rush for over 1,000 yards in 10 consecutive seasons!" Of course Smith did that 10(+) consecutive years too, so I was just setting the record straight lest readers who don't know better be misled.

    Report Violation

  • BillAFLman - December 31 2011 11:02 PM

    Jerry Kramer is a MUST SELCTION for next year. I think many people believe Jerry is already in the hall. Watching the pre-game hype for this past super bowl ESPN kept listing Jerry Kramer as a hall of famer. Annoucers even called him this. Ony player on all time 50th anniversay all time team to not be in the hall. Somebody must PLEASE fix this mistake. As for Chuck Howley. He is a Hall of Famer But I think Tommy Nobis, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy and maybe even JOhnny Robinson should go in first.

    reported

  • sean larsen - December 31 2011 03:38 PM

    karl mecklenburg should be in it

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - December 31 2011 11:22 AM

    Cosme and Raider Card Addict, regardless of their worth, none of the folks you mentioned except Tom Flores are regular candidates anymore. The problem with Flores's candidacy (as said already below) is that two Super Bowl wins is the start and end of his HoF argument -- his career is short and his lifetime W-L regular season coaching record of 97-87 is just not very good -- not enough to make up the difference. Re biases, I think it's safe to say we all have them. But given that there are quite a few long-time Raiders in the HoF (13 thus far: Marcus Allen, Fred Biletnikoff, George Blanda, Willie Brown, Dave Casper, Al Davis, Mike Haynes, Ted Hendricks, Howie Long, John Madden, Jim Otto, Art Shell, Gene Upshaw), it's hard to see a case for an anti-Raider slant to the HoF selection committee. In fact, that's easily the most for any of the teams that once were members of the old AFL (the Chiefs and Dolphins are tied for second place at 9 each, followed by the Bills with 8, the Oilers and Chargers at 7 each, the Jets and Patriots and Broncos at 4 each, and the Bengals with one).

    Report Violation

  • Cosme - December 31 2011 11:00 AM

    The entire 1960's Green Bay Packer starting backfield made the Hall of Fame: Bart Starr; Jim Taylor and Paul Hornung. The signature offensive play of five time NFL champion '60's Packers was the power sweep. Yet, only Forrest Gregg on the offensive line has made the Hall of Fame. How can THREE members of the backfield be in the Hall of Fame but only ONE of that teams blockers? Yes, Jim Ringo, the center for two of the championships also made the Hall, but the final three championships were earned when Ringo was gone. Jerry Kramer led those power sweeps. He was a several time All-Pro and part time kicker. Indeed, his field goals significantly contributed to the 1962 championship victory over the Giants, Kramer (and Ken Bowman) are responsible for the most famous block in NFL history during Bart Starr's one yard quarterback sneak to win the Ice Bowl against Dallas. Vince Lombardi, the iconic coach, declared him to be the best guard in football. Kramer is a member of the NFL all time 50th anniversary team, and the only member not in the Hall of Fame. Finally, Dramer's classic book, "Instant Replay," greatly added to the popularity of professional football in the 1960's. How can Jerry Kramer, a significant member of the greatest dynasty in football history, NOT be in the Hall of Fame? The seasons Kramer was injured, the Packers never made the playoffs!!! I am not a Packer fan, but I know injustice when I see it. Jerry Kramer MUST be put into the Hall of Fame - and while the voting committee is at work, Boyd Dowler and Dave Robinson of those same 1960's Packers should be added to the Hall of Fame, also.

    Report Violation

  • Cosme - December 29 2011 06:29 PM

    Chuck Howley and Jerry Kramer should be next years Old Timers Candidates AND nr elected to the Hall.

    Report Violation

  • STEVE - December 27 2011 04:08 PM

    RESPONSE TO: Rasputin - December 23 2011 04:51 AM Steve, Emmitt Smith had 11 consecutive 1000+ yard seasons Yes he did. But Curtis Martin and Barry Sanders are the ONLY two players to do so from their rookie year. 10 Consecutive Seasons of 1,000+ Rushing Yards from their Rookie year. Emmitt Smith was close but in his rookie year he rushed for 937 yards. Very close, only needed another 63 yards and then he WOULD have been the ONLY player to do it for 12 consecutive seasons. But he didn't. Even modern greats like Adrian Peterson and LaDainian Tomlinson will not break that record. Happy Holidays everyone! Steve

    reported

  • Raider Card Addict - December 26 2011 11:23 AM

    Biggest problem with the Hall of Fame process is that you have some selectors with personal biases that lock out truly great players, while other, less-deserving players are inducted. There's also the problem of trying to decide exactly what "greatest" is, when some get selected that never reached the plateau, only getting in due to personal records or accomplishments. I don't know of too many players who go into professional football and say, "I wanna pass for 4000 yards and go 4-12 on the year" or "I wanna rush for 1400 yards a year and get knocked out of the playoffs in the first round". Every team that plays, from training camps to the end of the season, all have the same goal, and that is getting to and winning the Super Bowl, or for the older players, the NFL Championship. You have a lot of players who had great careers, some winning multiple titles for the Raiders, for example who due to personal biases, continue to wait for the call, like Ken Stabler who had better statistics than Joe Namath. You have Cliff Branch, who was a better player than Lynn Swann. You have one of the best Corners, Lester Hayes out while the guy who taught him about Stickum, in the Hall. Then you have Tom Flores, who managed to keep this group of egos together and working forward, while working with the late-Al Davis, himself a Hall of Famer who introduced a number of HOF players. Lastly, you have Ray Guy, who is not only a rarity, but thanks to the Hall's own actions, kept him out so long that now his numbers are muddled, just like Branch's are, compared to those 20 years ago. Back then, it was a different era. It's time for the Hall of Fame to get a clue, learn from it's mistakes...and get over their own collective biases.

    reported

  • John - December 23 2011 10:07 AM

    Tim Brown and Cris Carter should go in together.

    reported

  • Rasputin - December 23 2011 04:51 AM

    Steve, Emmitt Smith had 11 consecutive 1000+ yard seasons.

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - December 22 2011 03:08 PM

    Bob, I'm definitely not against the idea of film study as an important determining factor for quality of play. In theory, it could even be seen as the most important aspect -- but the more I understand about film study, the less convinced I am that it's the same thing as being a fan and "going to a lot of games" or "seeing someone play," which you may or may not have actually said or meant here. For a linebacker, I'd guess real film study appears to involve knowing how to really break down someone's playing skills. Do they execute their assignments? Do they pass-rush well, and if so, what kinds of techniques do they use -- and how well do they use them? Do they use their hands well in different situations, for example to legally shed blockers or catch a thrown ball capably? How is their footwork in different situations? Can they cover a receiver, and how do they do so? Do they hold their position when required, or do they get fooled sometimes, and if so, how often? Do they gamble a lot in run or pass coverage, and are they able to cover up if they're caught out of position (maybe by making good open field tackles, for instance)? How do they handle blockers in run and pass rush situations? And most importantly, how do they compare to other players at their position -- how would they be ranked and why, and how does one weigh the various factors given that not every LB does everything equally well? This is all a far cry from sitting in the stands or casually watching on TV. And most importantly, when you're in an openly-available online forum and people are anonymous, how do you evaluate the veracity or competence of the person who implies they're good at visually evaluating players? That person could be anyone from Ron Wolf under a pseudonym to a 12-year-old troll. Bob, you may well be Ron Wolf under a pseudonym or the equivalent, but I simply can't tell. One thing I like about relying on postseason honors numbers and stats used in good context is that anyone can make the case using such numbers and explain their thinking -- the credibility relies on what they present and how they present it in black and white -- plus there seems to be a definite correlation between such things and HoF membership. It's tougher to make neat-and-tidy sabermetric arguments in football than in baseball given that the former is more of an inter-dependent team sport, but doing so would be ideal. The trick is figuring out how.

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - December 22 2011 12:43 PM

    Nickolay, thanks for the reply. If RBs who put up great receiving numbers hadn't existed prior to Roger Craig, I could see him being "unique in his contribution and example." But there's Lenny Moore and Frank Gifford to consider, both of whom predate Craig by a decent bit, and some guys who put up big rushing numbers like Jim Brown and Hugh McIlhenny were accomplished receivers as well. Re first ballot and related stuff (Howie Long was actually "2nd ballot") -- that often comes down to who else is in their first eligible year as well. Jim Kelly was "first ballot" in part because there weren't a lot of good newcomers that year (this was a "clean-up" year when longtime eligibles John Stallworth and Dave Casper got in along with Dan Hampton). Same with another "first ballot" guy, OT Jackie Slater (longtime finalists like Ron Yary, Lynn Swann, and Jack Youngblood finally made it in during this clean-up year). Besides, I don't lose sleep over when someone gets in -- elected is elected, whether in your first eligible year or last, and that's really all that matters. Re Howie Long vs. the other defensive players you mentioned: Long's postseason honors are actually very good at 3(2AP)/8/80s, exactly comparable to Chris Doleman at 3(2AP)/8/90s and Cortez Kennedy at 3(3AP)/8/90s, and better then Kevin Greene at 3(2AP)/5/90s or Charles Haley at 2(2AP)/5/none or Richard Dent at 2(1AP)/4/none. Greene and Haley have arguably the best such numbers among currently eligible OLBs not in, though. Long's numbers are also a little better then fellow HoF DE Lee Roy Selmon at 3(1AP)/6/80s. All pale next to DEs Bruce Smith at 8(8AP)/11/80s90s and Reggie White at 10(8AP)/13/80s90s and DT Randy White at 9(7AP)/9/80s, of course. Dent in fact strikes me as one of the weakest DL HoF members along with Fred Dean.

    Report Violation

  • Nickolay - December 22 2011 01:57 AM

    To John from Nov 25 about Jerry Rice's comments as to who the greatest WR is... Jerry publicly is modest and humble. He comes from humble roots in Mississippi and through out his career has given deference to other players-- Steve Largent, Andre Reed, et al. But Jerry is the GOAT.... GREATEST OF ALL TIME. He is Joe Lewis. He is Jim Brown (for his era). He is Johnny U. Montana openly said that Jerry extended his career. Steve Young threw the ball as a lefty, with it spinning a different direction, and at first was hailed as a running QB-- emphasis on running... Young didn't hit stride until 93/94. Here is the problem with the 49ers.. Ronnie Lott who be the greatest player ever if he was on a team like the Vikings or Seattle or the Lions or Cincinnati.; But his playing for the Niners... he is not even mentioned. Rice is arguably but statisically the GREATEST OF ALL TIME-- but he will always be second to St. Joe. How hard would Roger Craig fair? But Montana did not win by himself.

    reported

  • Nickolay - December 22 2011 12:59 AM

    This is a response to December 2's response by bachslunch. Firstly, thank you for addressing my comment with intelligence and thoughtfulness. My comment about Howie Long, Jim Kelly, and Michael Irvin are NOT about their HOF worthiness, but whether they should have been first ballot entries in Long & Kelly's case, and a quick 2nd in Irvin's. Irvin seemed to blatantly lobby for his own induction-- like a local politician-- but to each their own. There is no question, that each of these gentlemen did well as players-- but for them to be let into the party so easily while others wait outside behind the bouncer, turnstyle, and around the building is WRONG. Was Howie Long such a superior defensive player that he should be let in quicker than Richard Dent, or Cortez Kennedy, or Charles Haley or Doleman, or Greene... c'mon now... Michael Irvin to my knowledge is not even in the same class statistic wise with other WRs who are in the line... yet how easily you wanna quote statistics. Football is not baseball.. The stats don't tell the whole story or even much of the story. You have to see tape of how a person played. Tackles they ran through. Cuts made. Blocks. Catches... The how, the why, the when matter. And frankly people forget... because of fantasy football and video games. They act as if, because they play Madden, that that was how a player played. Roger Craig has been overlooked from even when he was at Nebraska. But he has run with dignity, class, ferociousness/ "heart of a lion" as Ronnie Lott would say. Eyes of a Catfish. He was about the size of Bill Ring when he played fullback and blocked for Wendall Tyler. The pass to the fullback started with him, before it went to fullbacks like Tom Rathman and Mosse and other guys from the Cowboys. It diminished because now QBs throw to 3 and 4 WR sets, or to multiple TE's who catch and run faster and better than Brent Jones or even Shannon Sharpe. And like Tony Gonzalez, Cal basketball product, commentators distinguish-- "most catches by a TE"--- they never say that about a RB... Yet look at the year that Reggie Bush, and Darren Sproles are having as pass catchers first... Then look again at Roger Craig... Needless to say, he is who I lobby for... And as a fan, I recognize similar passions felt for other fan favorites like Stabler, Donnie Shell, et al.. but Craig is unique in his contribution and example-- much like Ray Guy, Jan Stenerud, Paul Hornung, -- he changed the game.

    Report Violation

  • Bob TreyO - December 22 2011 12:24 AM

    Sorry, Bachslunch, but I just don't agree with you that all-pro selection (first or second team) is directly related to Hall of Fame worthiness. While All-Pro selections are generally good, they are always highly debatable. Any given season will yield half a dozen deserving candidates - But anyway, I've no desire to debate that topic. If you are determined to let a player's honors profile do all the talking for him, then so be it. I doubt there is anything that I can do about it. I will only tell you that if you had seen the man play you might well think differently.

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - December 21 2011 02:16 PM

    Folks, regardless of HoF worth (and their worth varies all over the map), Tommy Nobis, Maxie Baughan, Randy Gradishar, Claude Humphrey, John Hadl, John Brodie, Bill Bergey, and Jim Marshall are not eligible via the regular route anymore, only as Seniors. There's another topic area for these folks.

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - December 21 2011 11:33 AM

    Bob, thanks for replying. I'm glad we're in agreement that the all pro teams are generally very good. A thought -- you said "not making the all-pro first team does not indicate that a player was not highly regarded in his time. It indicates nothing more than that the player was not considered to have had the most outstanding season in any one particular year." If Clay Matthews was consistently hovering just below being "most outstanding," which he'd need to do to really belong in a HoF-worth discussion, should we see a bunch of 2nd team all pro selections for him? Let me know what you think on this.

    Report Violation

  • LR - December 21 2011 02:40 AM

    Tommy Nobis and Maxie Baughn should be the old timers nominees next year. Randy Gradishar, Claude Humphrey, John Hadl, John Brodie, Bill Bergey and Jim Marshall also deserve to be in. My vote for this year would go for Tim Brown, Chris Carter, Willie Roaf, Dermonti Dawson, Jerome Bettis and Clay Mathews.

    reported

  • Gene Monico - December 18 2011 03:32 PM

    The senior committee should nominate Jim Marshall of the Minnesota Vikings, purple people eater team. He has many unbroken records. Please consider Mr. Marshall for the much deserved Hall of Fame Lets not honored him once he has passed, lets do it now!!!!!!!!!!!! PS' I am a loyal Detroit Lions fan, that thinks a Viking like Mr. Marshall should be honored.

    Report Violation

  • Bob TreyO - December 17 2011 03:22 PM

    Bachslunch, I don't say that the people picking the All-Pro teams are morons or that they don't take their selections seriously. I'm quite sure that they do. Still, I'd wager that there is a lot less film study that goes into it than you imagine. These writers have real jobs to tend to, after all. And I don't say that the All-pro team selections generally stink. In fact, I think that they are generally very good. I just say that not making the all-pro first team does not indicate that a player was not highly regarded in his time. It indicates nothing more than that the player was not considered to have had the most outstanding season in any one particular year. Clay Matthews was considered one of the best at his position for longer than most guys play in the league. And the fact that he never put up 17 sacks in any one season doesn't mean he didn't put together a more impressive career than some of those who did.

    Report Violation

  • michael - December 16 2011 05:49 PM

    Any HOF voting that does not include Art Modell is a travesty. While we in Baltimore lost a team we understand the feelings in Cleveland, but at least Cleveland was gaurenteed a team where we were not. Expansion then passed us by and now that the Ravens are here we certainly support them better than either Jacksonville or Carolina. Art worked very hard for the NFL and made them a ton of money for the league. Meanwhile Al Davis was put in the HOF and he moved his team all over the west coast. Plus he sued the NFL at the drop of a hat. There is no comparison between these two owners. Please cure this tavesty and put Art in the HOF while he is still alive.

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - December 16 2011 03:57 PM

    Agreed with Steve and Neil that Curtis Martin has a very strong HoF argument and belongs in. Given the small number of good newly-eligible candidates and the fact that he made the cut to the final 10 last time (but not to the final 5, along with Kennedy, Reed, Roaf, and Dawson), chances are good Martin gets in this year -- but if for some reason he doesn't, he'll be elected soon enough. Odd things happen in these elections sometimes. Whether Terrell Davis is a HoF running back depends on whether one sufficiently values his high but short peak over his short career length. But given that other short career RBs like Gale Sayers and Earl Campbell are in, there's some precedent for Davis as well.

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - December 16 2011 12:48 PM

    Bob, a couple thoughts. Re AP teams, I include the distinction in postseason honors listings only because some people (not me) seem to think it's useful information. I brought it up because you mentioned it relative to Rickey Jackson with what may have been a suggestion that it's somehow meaningful. In fact, we may both be in agreement that it isn't especially meaningful, and that's fine by me. Re sportswriters, I'd bet a few are "not more knowledgeable, more informed, or more considerate in their evaluations than "casual" fans." But there are certainly a number of sportswriters who are head and shoulders above casual fans, with Paul Zimmerman being one example. It really comes down to this -- who is making all-pro team decisions, the morons or the informed? My hearsay understanding re folks who pick such teams is that they take their jobs seriously. If what I've heard is true, many talk to scouts, coaches, front office people, and players for input -- and some apparently are good at film study, and do this -- before voting. And given that such teams are decided by a vote of a few dozen people (not just a person or two), we'd have to have a lot of morons participating here for the results to stink. I just don't see how we can assume all or even a substantial number of such voters are morons taken in by flash and visibility. If you choose to reject that, we're working off different assumptions, and there's really no place the discussion can go from here.

    Report Violation

  • Bob TreyO - December 15 2011 09:53 PM

    Bachslunch, if you would like to see a good argument on why AP all-pro selections are superior to others, then you've definitely come to the wrong guy. You are the one who has been pointing out the number of AP selections for each player. What I'm trying to tell you is that one shouldn't get too hung up on any of these postseason honors. Flash (and just plain visibility) often win out over substance in such selection processes. Well-rounded players are often overshadowed by more specialized talents. And sportswriters often demonstrate that they are not more knowledgeable, more informed, or more considerate in their evaluations than "casual" fans.

    Report Violation

  • STEVE - December 15 2011 05:41 PM

    There are several worthy candidates but without question CURTIS MARTIN has earn the right and distiction to enter this years Hall of Fame. He is 4th on the All Time Rushing List with 14,101 yards which he accomplished in 10 seasons compared to Jerome Bettis who is 3rd on the All Time Rushing list but that took him 13 season to do. If Martin was able to play another 3 years he would be 2nd All-Time! He has also been to several Pro Bowls and has won two Rushing Titles. One of the rushing title he won at the age of 31...the oldest running back to ever win the title! Also, ONLY Curtis Martin and the great Barry Sanders are the ONLY two players in NFL History to rush for over 1,000 yards in 10 consecutive seasons! Now that's an accomplishment! Lastly, Martin was a TRUE leader and gentleman both on and off the field. His knee injury was truly a loss to anyone that calls themselves a football fan. HOF Committee...do the right thing...Induct Curtis Martin into this years Hall of Fame Class!

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - December 15 2011 10:44 AM

    Bob, here's where I'm coming from on Clay Matthews and postseason honors. Looking at all OLBs of the 80s and 90s with at least one first team all pro selection who played a decent bit during those decades (as far as I can find, anyway), here's how things shake out [numbers mean 1st team all pro (and via AP)/pro bowls/all decade team memberships]: Lawrence Taylor: 9(8AP)/10/80s, Junior Seau: 9(6AP)/12/90s, Derrick Thomas: 3(2AP)/9/90s, Andre Tippett: 2(2AP)/5/80s, Rickey Jackson: 2(0AP)/6/none, Kevin Greene: 3(2AP)/5/90s, Charles Haley: 2(2AP)/5/none, Cornelius Bennett: 3(1AP)/5/90s, Pat Swilling: 2(2AP)/5/none, Greg Lloyd: 3(3AP)/5/none, Clay Matthews: 1(0AP)/4/none, Chip Banks: 2(1AP)/4/none, Wilber Marshall: 2(2AP)/3/none, Seth Joyner: 2(0AP)/3/none, Darryl Talley: 2(0AP)/2/none, Tim Harris: 2(1AP)/1/none, Greg Townsend: 1(0AP)/2/none, Carl Banks: 1(1AP)/1/80s, Mike Merriweather: 1(0AP)/3/none, Rod Martin: 3(1AP)/2/none, Steve Nelson: 1(0AP)/3/none, Tom Jackson: 1(1AP)/3/none, Hugh Green: 2(0AP)/2/none, Bryce Paup: 1(1AP)/4/none, Chad Brown: 2(2AP)/3/none, Lamar Lathon: 1(0AP)/1/none, Jesse Armstead: 1(1AP)/5/none, John Mobley: 1(1AP)/1/none, Mo Lewis: 1(1AP)/3/none. Taylor and Seau are head-and-shoulders above everyone else here, but two OLBs from this era is too thin representation. So who else goes in? From what I can see, the next clump of players down from this starts at Thomas and ends at Lloyd, with everyone else behind that group. Taylor, Thomas, Tippett, and Jackson are in, and given voting patterns, Seau and Haley and Greene will probably also be elected. As seems to happen at non-skill positions, highest postseason honors seem to result in HoF membership, with few outliers. I'm fine with that, given that such honors usually tell us what contemporaries thought of the player at the time. And it's clear that Matthews is lower than Bennett, Swilling, and Lloyd, so that's the thinking here. Re AP versus other 1st team all pro squads: I would like to see a good argument that says AP teams are somehow "better" than those via other organizations -- in fact, the NEA team for years was considered the "players team" (with input from such folks) and possibly even more definitive than AP's. And you don't want to go that route in comparing Jackson vs. Matthews, as neither has a 1st team all pro selection via AP -- Jackson's two and Matthews's one came courtesy of NEA. Film study can make a big difference in isolated cases where such numbers are low (Ray Nitschke is the prime example), but I'm not convinced casual fans know how to do this -- being a fan sitting in the stands every Sunday isn't the same thing. We're talking real film study here, like scouts or knowledgeable HoF voters like Paul Zimmerman know/knew how to do.

    Report Violation

  • Bob TreyO - December 14 2011 09:22 PM

    Well, Bachslunch, it may be that Clay Matthews's versatility has worked against him. He was a better tackler/run stopper than most OLB's and a better pass rusher/pursuer than most ILB's. It could be he was often passed over because he didn't stand out to the level of other linebackers who were more specialized. A guy like Swilling, for example, stood out as an elite pass rusher, and when it came time to pick an all-pro at outside linebacker, no doubt elite pass rushers were considered first. No one considered it any kind of a defect in Swilling's game if he wasn't a force up the middle. Wasn't his job. Not his primary job, anyway. Conversely, Matthews superior ability to take on blockers and fill holes was not expected of outside backers and so probably not weighed with the consideration it deserved. But I think Matthews, in terms of his skill set, is a closer match to Rickey Jackson (in the Hall) than is Pat Swilling. Matthews did it all to a high level. Arguably, not quite to the level of Rickey Jackson, but I would say pretty close. And Rickey Jackson, by the way, was also never picked by the AP as a first team all-pro . . . Wow! Had to check that thrice. So, respectfully, maybe that is not such a vital criterion after all. Clay was pretty bad**s, believe me - even if he did play in relative obscurity. He didn't play in the NFL until he was forty for nothing. I wish him luck.

    Report Violation

  • Neil - December 14 2011 07:14 AM

    I cannot believe people are saying that Terell davis should be in over Curtis Martin or that Martin was just an ok runner not hof material. It is not his fault he played on alot of really bad teams with the Jets. He is the only rb along side Barry Sanders to rush for over 100 yrds his first 10 years. He is 4th on the all time rushing list with 14,101 yards, tied for 19th all time with Franco Harris for career td's at 100 (90 rushing 10 rec)8th all time career yrds from scrimmage with 17,430. He also had 5 pro bowl selections, and led the league in rushing in 2004 his 10th year in the league. Swap out John Elway for Testaverde, Lucas, Mirer,Pennington, Carter, Foley, Bollinger and you see why the Broncos won more then the Jets during Martins time there. Martin and Bettis should have been a 1st ballot guys but the ridiculous you cant have 3 rb's go in the same year idea prevented that.

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - December 12 2011 01:52 PM

    Bob, as I said below, we can all write our own essential histories of the NFL -- but just because someone shows up in it (Alan Ameche, Doug Williams, and Jay Berwanger would all be in mine) doesn't automatically mean they're HoF worthy. It's really the "history" the individual HoF voters come up with that matters most anyway, if it matters at all. Re Clay Matthews: one reason I value things like 1st team all pro selections and pro bowls for non-skill players is that they tell us what knowledgeable contemporary observers thought of the player in relation to peers -- and those numbers don't favor Matthews as much as they do Cornelius Bennett, Pat Swilling, or Greg Lloyd.

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - December 12 2011 01:16 PM

    SSR, thanks for making your own point that a "lack of stats only bolster[s]...deservingness." Ignoring for a moment the fact that you're comparing raw stats by QBs from different eras, if we accept that Tobin Rote has greater "lack of stats" than Ken Stabler, you're ironically only helping Rote's HoF case -- worse stats, so bigger bolster here, right? Not that I'm on board, myself, just saying. Besides, none of what you've stated contradicts what HoF QB voting patterns have consistently been: 1.) QBs with great stats normally get in regardless of SBs/NFL Championships won and 2.) QBs with very good stats and more than one SB/NFL Championship win usually get in. It also doesn't change the fact that Stabler has very good stats and one SB win, as do QBs such as Joe Theismann -- and the only exception here is Joe Namath, who can fairly be seen as a bad HoF choice. Once more, comparing your favorite HoF snub to a HoF mistake is not a good argument. Hey, I didn't choose the parameters, but there they are, and all-caps shouting won't change that. Thanks for playing, though.

    Report Violation

  • SSR - December 09 2011 06:15 PM

    Alright, bachslunch, the most tds Tobin Rote had in a season was 20. The most Ken Stabler had was 27. Tobin Rote's career completion percentage is 45%, Stabler's is 59%. Rote went to 2 Pro Bowls. Stabler went to 4. Rote had 8 fourth quarter comebacks and 8 game winning drives. Stabler had 19 fourth quarter comebacks and 26 game winning drives. The Snake belongs in the hall of fame. DEAL WITH IT!!!!!

    Report Violation

  • Bob TreyO - December 09 2011 05:56 PM

    SSR writes: One question that's asked in the selection meetings is, "Can you write the history of the NFL without (insert name here)?" I think that is such an excellent point, SSR! And I agree that the Snake definitely qualifies on that score. Very well put. Also, more love for Ray Guy. Whether this is technically the right forum or not, I don't think his case can be overstated until he finally is in the Hall. Come on, Man! And yeah, I'm a Raider fan, but A****er was awesome. Just nasty. Good pick there. Mecklenburg was very good, too, and never got the recognition he deserved. But I have to disagree with your assessment of Clay Matthews, Bachslunch and Mike P. He did it all. Size. Speed. Athleticism. Big play after big play. The guy was everywhere, all the time. And he was tough as nails. Now that was a football player. I would definitely - easily - instantly take him over Bennett, Swilling, or Lloyd (and no disrespect to any of that class). He was a much more well-rounded player than any of them. And although I make that assessment purely from having watched all of them play, a comparison of their career numbers only corroborates that assessment utterly. I really don't know where you all are coming from dissing Clay like that. If Matthews isn't a lead pipe cinch as a Hall of Fame linebacker, then there is no such thing.

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - December 09 2011 12:28 PM

    Pete, regardless of his HoF fitness or not, how do we know for sure that special teamer Steve Tasker was "By far the best player at the position, ever." Back when players like Alex Hawkins and Lou Piccone and Bill Malinchak and Ceasar Belser were special teams stars, there was no postseason honors recognition for this type of player. How do we actually know the answer to this question?

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - December 09 2011 11:13 AM

    SSR, please provide substantial proof that Rote "wasn't as big a threat to a defense as Stabler was." How do we know this, especially since the two played in entirely different eras? Note that like Stabler, Rote was named a league MVP once, of the AFL in 1963. And you're comparing accumulated stats, not adjusted for era stats by citing raw passing yards -- for adjusted "Best 4," "Best 7," and "Best 10" seasons, Rasaretnam has Stabler at 32nd, 38th, 26th; Starr at 4th, 8th, 8th; Staubach 14th, 13th, does not qualify because of shorter career; Griese 26th, 24th, 17th. Super Bowl/NFL Championship wins: Stabler 1, Starr 5, Staubach 2, Griese 2. Namath, as I've already said twice, can be seen as a HoF mistake, and as mentioned before, comparing Stabler to the weakest HoF member at the position is not a good HoF argument.

    Report Violation

  • mark g schabacker - December 07 2011 07:20 PM

    tim brown here's why, if tim brown has stats close to jerry rice, 2nd or 3rd behind rice, in some catagories, and if tim brown had a decent quarterback throughout his carrer he'd probully be ahead of rice

    Report Violation

  • Pete Marinaro - December 07 2011 04:35 PM

    Steve Tasker - By far the best player at the position, ever. The HoF voters need to wake up and realize this. I hear how Special Teams is not as important, how they don't play as much, but is that what you are measuring in the HoF? We are not comparing Steve to a Bruce Smith or Jim Kelly, but to other special team players. Kelly wasn't compared to Smith, but to other quarterbacks. PLEASE HoF correct this injustice.

    Report Violation

  • SSR - December 05 2011 07:52 PM

    bachslunch, where Stabler differs from Rote is that Rote wasn't as big a threat to a defense as Stabler was. Also, what does Stabler have without Super Bowl XI? 1974 NFL MVP, 1970s All-Decade Team, led the Raiders AND Oilers to the playoffs, and he's got more passing yards than Namath, Staubach, Griese, and Starr.

    reported

  • bachslunch - December 05 2011 04:26 PM

    George, Tom Flores unfortunately doesn't have a HoF argument beyond his two SB wins. His career is short, and his lifetime W-L regular season coaching record of 97-87 is just not very good -- not enough to make up the difference. Cowboy Fan, agreed fully with you on Stanley Morgan being HoF worthy, but the bar is so high for WRs that he'll likely end up in the Seniors pool, joining the highly deserving Harold Jackson and arguably less accomplished Otis Taylor.

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - December 05 2011 02:03 PM

    SSR, here are Rasaretnam's rankings for the alleged "stats QBs" you mentioned, best 4 years, best 7 years, best 10 years: Roman Gabriel (21st, 17th, 15th), Dave Krieg (65th, 49th, 27th), Vinny Testaverde (94th, 76th, 46th), Jim Hart (77th, 69th, 40th). For reference, compare to Ken Anderson (3rd, 3rd, 5th) and Ken Stabler (32nd, 38th, 26th). Anderson's easily got the best stats argument here, followed by Gabriel. If you truly believe a "lack of stats only bolster[s]...deservingness," why aren't you pushing a HoF case for Tobin Rote (70th, 66th, 43rd), who won an NFL championship game with the '57 Lions and an AFL championship game with the '63 Chargers, or in other words one more title game than Stabler, and has an even greater "lack of stats?" And we can do the "take away this and that" game from potential HoF-ers in all directions -- take away Stabler's one Super Bowl win and where does that leave his HoF case?

    Report Violation

  • Mike K. - December 05 2011 10:36 AM

    Hey Bachslunch, I know I'm being a bit nitpicky here, but the Immaculate Reception game was in the divisional round of that year's playoffs; Pittsburgh's win only sent them to the AFC championship game, which they proceeded to lose to Miami (who were on their way to that undefeated season). Just thought I'd point that out. ;) Agree with you on Clay Matthews; not at all a good choice as a semifinalist, and I was quite surprised to see his name there. He's definitely not going to make the finalist list in January. Regarding the all-decade teams, I know you often use those as one measuring stick of a player's HOF worth, but I'm not necessarily sold on the value of that honor, as I have issues with how those teams were selected and some of the players named to them. If you really inspect those teams, you'll see that most of them have players on them that weren't really deserving compared to some of their contemporaries. I'd be interested in discussing with you and anyone else who is interested the players named to the teams who I think are problematic, and my "nominees" to replace them. Any forum or message board that you and other keen football historians usually hang out on?

    reported

  • George - December 05 2011 10:35 AM

    Tom Flores????

    reported

  • Cowboy Fan - December 03 2011 10:25 PM

    To continue with the WR's not in the hall how about Harold Jackson. Again played before the rules change/yardage explosion era 10,372 yards, 76TD's, 5 Pro Bowls, avg. 17.9 yards per catch. Or how about Otis Taylor 7,306 yards over 9+ seasons, 17.8 yards per catch, 3x Pro Bowler, 2x Ft All Pro. Stanley Morgan at the 14 year mark of his career had the highest yards per catch avg in history (19.2), 72 TD's, 10,716 yards, 4 Pro Bowls...COME ON VOTERS DO YOUR JOBS!

    reported

  • SSR - December 03 2011 05:14 PM

    So, bachslunch, if stats matter, why not put Dave Krieg in? Why not put Vinny Testaverde in? Why not put Jim Hart in? Why not put Roman Gabriel in? If you take away Ken Anderson's 1981 season, what's left about Anderson. I think Snake's lack of stats only bolster his deservingness. He led the Raiders to 5 AFC title games. How many quarterbacks can do that?

    reported

  • bachslunch - December 03 2011 06:23 AM

    SSR, a major reason Ken Stabler isn't in the HoF is that his numbers are good but not at top-drawer level, and he doesn't have enough SB/NFL Championship success to make up the difference (one such win). Rasaretnam's period adjusted rankings, for one, place Stabler's "best 4 years" 32nd on the list, "best 7" 38th on the list, and "best 10" 26th on the list. For some perspective re other non-HoF QBs, that puts him light-years behind Ken Anderson (3rd, 3rd, 5th) and well behind Roman Gabriel (21st, 15th, 17th), mostly behind John Brodie (35th, 23rd, 16th), and about in the vicinity of Joe Theismann (29th, 34th, 30th). And there are several HoF receivers who did not have HoF QBs throwing to them for much or all of their careers, including Steve Largent, Ozzie Newsome, Art Monk, Charlie Sanders, Mike Ditka, Lance Alworth, James Lofton, Jackie Smith, and Pete Pihos (please correct me if I'm wrong here). Besides, Stabler is not eligible as a regular candidate anymore.

    Report Violation

  • Andrew - December 02 2011 02:41 PM

    SSR, as a Steelers' fan going way back, I remember all those playoff games between the Raiders and Steelers, including the "Ice Bowl" in 1975-76 (of course, I'd have to argue that the frozen field disadvantaged both teams). I am in total agreement with you, however, regarding Ken Stabler. I think he should have been inducted years ago. I know his TD to INT ratio is not terrific (194 to 222), but it's not really atypical of other inducted QBs from that era, including Joe Namath and Terry Bradshaw. Besides, Stabler's greatness went well beyond individual numbers, and he had a great winning percentage and made some historically memorable plays. What's interesting about this year's list is that there really are no "locks," and just about every individual has been passed over previously. I think Curtis Martin and Chris Carter will probably get in, along with Parcells. Beyond that, I have no idea. I would like to see Donnie Shell inducted, but can certainly understand if people are sick of 1970s' era Steelers being inducted - particularly given that being a key part of a dynasty has not gotten Roger Craig inducted.

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - December 02 2011 02:15 PM

    Nickolay, a few thoughts. First, do you think Howie Long, Jim Kelly, and Michael Irvin don't belong in? I'd be interested to hear why you think not, if that's the case. Besides, whether a player waits a while or not often depends on things like how strong the ballot happened to be in a particular year -- for example, Irvin's career ended early enough that he beat the current WR logjam into the HoF. Second, there's a balancing act that the PFHoF needs to keep up, a wish to be exclusive (have seen the comment "it's hard to get into the Hall of Fame -- and it should be," which isn't really unreasonable) and getting all the people in who are deserving. One good way to address this, given that more Contributors/Coaches are getting in lately and thus putting more pressure on the player pool, is to continue having five modern era players allowed and adding in a separate Coach/Contributor slot, like the two Senior slots now employed. It means having the likelihood of eight people enshrined, but that's fine. Third, agreed that the Carter/Reed/Brown WR logjam needs to be addressed and soon, hopefully this year, though the HoF has historically been much harder on receivers than RBs or QBs and waits here aren't unheard of. Fourth, I also cringe when I hear commentators call players "sure fire HOFers," as they often don't have a clue on the subject -- though I do think that's a fair assessment of Tony Gonzalez. Fifth, re Roger Craig, it doesn't help his case that his peak and career (11 years total, with 4 at elite level, 3 of them varying degrees of good/very good, and 4 so-so to poor) are on the short side. Comparing Craig to Marshall Faulk also doesn't help him, as Faulk has ca. 6,000 more lifetime all-purpose yards -- or half again as many as Craig, something that even when period adjusting is probably going to favor Faulk. And having another very good all-purpose 49er back following him (Ricky Watters) just makes Craig's HoF case that much tougher to make. Plus QBs are RBs are more lavishly represented in the HoF than other positions. Last, I disagree vehemently with the idea that Bert Blyleven doesn't belong in the BBHoF, but that's for another forum.

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - December 02 2011 07:42 AM

    More stuff. Ray Guy (again), Ken Stabler, Jim Marshall, Drew Pearson, and Cliff Branch are not eligible as regular candidates, only as Seniors, and this thread deals with regular candidates. FWIW, I agree that Pearson and Branch are HoF deserving WRs from their era, as are Harold Jackson and Harold Carmichael -- all have similar stats -- and I can see a HoF argument for Guy also. Agreed very much that Dermontti Dawson belongs in the HoF and that he's clearly the best center of the 90s, but that's as far as it goes -- and Dwight Stephenson played only 8 years while still amassing 4 1st team all pro selections, 5 pro bowl nods, and an all-80s team berth, so saying Dawson's 6/7/90s profile in a 13 year career is "better" is a misleading argument at best. Stephenson is the ultimate high-peak/short-career O-Lineman and the only such player since the 1960s in the HoF. And considering Jim Otto to be "pre-Super Bowl" and Mick Tingelhoff "post-Super Bowl" when they are both almost exact contemporaries makes no sense -- and note well that Otto's postseason honors profile is 12(10AP)/12/allAFL, higher in the first two categories than any other center I know of. Besides, we were talking best center all-time, weren't we? Brandon, all you did was repeat your Ole Haugsrud post without elaboration, and I'll ask again: "Re Ole Haugsrud, he was a Senior finalist long ago and was not elected to the HoF at the time, and it's unclear to me what makes his case compelling." Crush Arizona, it makes no sense to deny Karl Mecklenburg HoF membership if he's deserving just because Randy Gradishar isn't in -- that just makes the problem worse. In fact, getting Mecklenburg in makes Gradishar's snub look even more terrible, which only helps his case -- and given that the latter is only Senior-eligible, Mecklenburg isn't directly competing with Gradishar by denying him a spot or something similar. And while you're at it, please prove that Rod Smith is more HoF deserving than Cris Carter -- I sure don't see it. joshbgill, even though Jim Marshall is only Senior-eligible, I'll specially rebut your idea here that he has any business in the HoF, as I too think this bears repeating. For most of his career, Marshall was the second best DE on his own team (behind Carl Eller) and the third best d-lineman (behind Eller and Alan Page). In his 20 year career, Marshall never, ever once was a 1st team all pro and went to only two measly pro bowls. If elected, those would be the worst such numbers by a d-lineman in the HoF by a long shot. Marshall has a long consecutive game streak, but that doesn't work any better as a HoF argument for him than it does for Everett Scott re the Baseball Hall of Fame. Citing Marshall and Cal Ripken in the same breath is an insult to the latter, as Ripken was a HoF-er with or without his consecutive game streak. And citing raw stats for Marshall (according to the Vikings, an unofficial 127 sacks and 30 fumble recoveries) ignores the fact that averaging those numbers over a long career produce ca. 6 sacks and 1.5 fumble recoveries per season -- not exactly world-beating. Why folks continue to argue on behalf of Marshall and ignore his Vikes teammate center Mick Tingelhoff, who was a 1st team all pro 7 times, went to 6 pro bowls, and had a long consecutive game streak of his own (second behind Marshall's at time of retirement) is truly puzzling.

    Report Violation

  • Nickolay - December 01 2011 11:20 PM

    Every older fan (over 35) speaks of their own team and the heroes of their team... Raiders and Snake, Ray Guy, Cliff Branch; Steelers and Dawson and the Bus, Denver, GB, the Bills et al... I am also in that class and would speak of my 49ers and Roger Craig, Charles Haley, Eddie DeBartolo.. but the greater travesty is the overall bottleneck in the NFL Hall of Fame... Baseball's Hall-- you have to really scronge to let in Burt Blyleven and his 20 year career.. and I liked BB myself... but FOOTBALL-- THE WAITING LINE IS OUTRAGEOUS AND UNJUST. Defensive players routinely get passed over.. The WRs backlog of Cris Carter, Tim Brown, Andre Reed is just wrong.. especially after letting some players who were more on TV as commentators lobby into the Hall on short ballots-- Howie Long (no offense), Jim Kelly (come on, man...), and Michael Irvin... Were they so great that they didn't have to wait... And so others wait... How is it that Marshall Faulk is the SECOND player to date to get 1000 rushing and 1000 receiving in one year... and the guy who was first to do it is still waiting... Oh yeah.. and Roger did score how many TDs against Marino's Dolphins and Elway's Broncos.. To the guy who said Craig didn't have x number of yards after leaving SF-- thats like saying Unitas shouldn't be in the hall for his time in San Diego..., or Emmitt when he was biding his time in Arizona. Craig played FULLBACK at an all-pro level and was instrumental for the 49ers wins in SBs 2 and 3. Frankly, we should open the flood gates and have 10 inductees every year... 80% of the semifinalists are worthy entrees into the Hall... they are just standing in line... The pretty girls who go ahead of the line are usually media darlings and the "younger/prettier"... I cringe when I hear of commentators on TV who speak of current players as "sure fire HOFers" (not Manning/ Brady) but...Tony Gonzalez, and Donald Driver, and Johnson from the Titans... come on, now... get in line... Respect those who have gone before... Learn your history.. What NFL films... and whole games/ careers... and not just 10second sport's center highlites... Enough of that... But the defensive player waiting line--

    Report Violation

  • Nickolay - December 01 2011 11:19 PM

    Every older fan (over 35) speaks of their own team and the heroes of their team... Raiders and Snake, Ray Guy, Cliff Branch; Steelers and Dawson and the Bus, Denver, GB, the Bills et al... I am also in that class and would speak of my 49ers and Roger Craig, Charles Haley, Eddie DeBartolo.. but the greater travesty is the overall bottleneck in the NFL Hall of Fame... Baseball's Hall-- you have to really scronge to let in Burt Blyleven and his 20 year career.. and I liked BB myself... but FOOTBALL-- THE WAITING LINE IS OUTRAGEOUS AND UNJUST. Defensive players routinely get passed over.. The WRs backlog of Cris Carter, Tim Brown, Andre Reed is just wrong.. especially after letting some players who were more on TV as commentators lobby into the Hall on short ballots-- Howie Long (no offense), Jim Kelly (come on, man...), and Michael Irvin... Were they so great that they didn't have to wait... And so others wait... How is it that Marshall Faulk is the SECOND player to date to get 1000 rushing and 1000 receiving in one year... and the guy who was first to do it is still waiting... Oh yeah.. and Roger did score how many TDs against Marino's Dolphins and Elway's Broncos.. To the guy who said Craig didn't have x number of yards after leaving SF-- thats like saying Unitas shouldn't be in the hall for his time in San Diego..., or Emmitt when he was biding his time in Arizona. Craig played FULLBACK at an all-pro level and was instrumental for the 49ers wins in SBs 2 and 3. Frankly, we should open the flood gates and have 10 inductees every year... 80% of the semifinalists are worthy entrees into the Hall... they are just standing in line... The pretty girls who go ahead of the line are usually media darlings and the "younger/prettier"... I cringe when I hear of commentators on TV who speak of current players as "sure fire HOFers" (not Manning/ Brady) but...Tony Gonzalez, and Donald Driver, and Johnson from the Titans... come on, now... get in line... Respect those who have gone before... Learn your history.. What NFL films... and whole games/ careers... and not just 10second sport's center highlites... Enough of that... But the defensive player waiting line--

    Report Violation

  • Nickolay - December 01 2011 11:03 PM

    Every older fan (over 35) speaks of their own team and the heroes of their team... Raiders and Snake, Ray Guy, Cliff Branch; Steelers and Dawson and the Bus, Denver, GB, the Bills et al... I am also in that class and would speak of my 49ers and Roger Craig, Charles Haley, Eddie DeBartolo.. but the greater travesty is the overall bottleneck in the NFL Hall of Fame... Baseball's Hall-- you have to really scronge to let in Burt Blyleven and his 20 year career.. and I liked BB myself... but FOOTBALL-- THE WAITING LINE IS OUTRAGEOUS AND UNJUST. Defensive players routinely get passed over.. The WRs backlog of Cris Carter, Tim Brown, Andre Reed is just wrong.. especially after letting some players who were more on TV as commentators lobby into the Hall on short ballots-- Howie Long (no offense), Jim Kelly (come on, man...), and Michael Irvin... Were they so great that they didn't have to wait... And so others wait... How is it that Marshall Faulk is the SECOND player to date to get 1000 rushing and 1000 receiving in one year... and the guy who was first to do it is still waiting... Oh yeah.. and Roger did score how many TDs against Marino's Dolphins and Elway's Broncos.. To the guy who said Craig didn't have x number of yards after leaving SF-- thats like saying Unitas shouldn't be in the hall for his time in San Diego..., or Emmitt when he was biding his time in Arizona. Craig played FULLBACK at an all-pro level and was instrumental for the 49ers wins in SBs 2 and 3. Frankly, we should open the flood gates and have 10 inductees every year... 80% of the semifinalists are worthy entrees into the Hall... they are just standing in line... The pretty girls who go ahead of the line are usually media darlings and the "younger/prettier"... I cringe when I hear of commentators on TV who speak of current players as "sure fire HOFers" (not Manning/ Brady) but...Tony Gonzalez, and Donald Driver, and Johnson from the Titans... come on, now... get in line... Respect those who have gone before... Learn your history.. What NFL films... and whole games/ careers... and not just 10second sport's center highlites... Enough of that... But the defensive player waiting line--

    reported

  • Mike K. - December 01 2011 09:11 PM

    KYGBPFAN, sorry, but of those players you mentioned, only Kramer is deserving. I fail to see how anyone can make a good argument for either McGee or Thurston; sorry, but I think it's your bias talking. Plus, there are already many members of the '60's Packers in the HOF (10, if I'm remembering correctly), and Kramer and possibly Dave Robinson are the only other two from those teams that should be enshrined.

    Report Violation

  • KYGBPFAN - December 01 2011 08:35 PM

    Isn't it about time to show some love for some of the '60s Packers that should be in the hall? Jerry Kramer, Max Magee, Fuzzy Thurston - all deserve to be enshrined.

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - December 01 2011 04:39 PM

    SSR, I'm not interested in embracing sports-based conspiracy theories, including the one you're suggesting. And if you missed it before, I'll say it again: the best policy is to not get oneself in a sufficiently precarious position that a controversial call can beat you. So what's the issue on Stabler? From what I can see, QBs who get into the HoF primarily have stat-driven arguments, and outliers have to at least have been very good with two or more NFL Championship or Super Bowl wins, the more the better. If we look at Rasaretnam's "Best 7 years" rankings for QBs (HoF-ers starred) who played a significant amount in the 70s, it lists Ken Anderson 3rd, *Fran Tarkenton 5th, *Roger Staubach 13th, Roman Gabriel 17th, *Dan Fouts 19th, *Bob Griese 24th, Joe Theismann 34th, Ken Stabler 38th, Archie Manning 43rd, Craig Morton 45th, Steve Bartkowski 53rd, Billy Kilmer 55th, Brian Sipe 62nd, *Joe Namath 67th, Jim Hart 69th, *Terry Bradshaw 74th, Dan Pastorini 77th, Jim Zorn 83rd, Joe Ferguson 86th, and Jim Plunkett 90th. The two 70s HoF outliers are Bradshaw, who won 4 Super Bowls, and Namath, who can be considered a mistake. Again, Stabler only won one SB, and it's just not enough to make up the difference given the tradition the HoF has established on electing QBs. In fact, he's arguably closest to Theismann, ranked in "Best 7" only four places higher and also with one Super Bowl win -- and nobody's beating down the door to get him in the HoF, nor should they. Give Stabler even two more Super Bowl wins and that's likely a different story. And as far as I can see, the big question should be "Why isn't Ken Anderson in the HoF?" There are in fact several QBs in with excellent stats and no Super Bowl/NFL Championship success, including Tarkenton (5th), Y.A. Tittle (9th), Sonny Jurgensen (15th), Dan Marino (18th), and Fouts (19th), and it's not clear why Anderson is different here. I say we get Anderson in the HoF first and then let's talk about Stabler, okay?

    Report Violation

  • SSR - December 01 2011 01:03 PM

    Actually, bachslunch, it wasn't a one time mistake by the refs. They always screwed the Raiders. In the 1975 AFC Championship Game at Three Rivers Stadium, the tarp over the field "accidentally" tore open and froze the field, and the referees didn't do a thing about it. The biggest stab in the heart for the Raiders of the 1970s was the 1977 AFX Championship Game against the Broncos. In the Raiders' red zone, Rob Lytle fumbled the ball with Jack Tatum recovering the ball. What do the refs do? They give the ball back to Broncos, they score, they lose to Denver. You're going to tell me that's Stabler's fault? Also, remember, in the Immaculate Reception game, he rushed for a touchdown that put the Raiders ahead, and then, IT happened and they lost. Stabler was one of the best quarterbacks of the 1970s. He's the only All-Decade quarterback NOT in the hall of fame. He led the Raiders to over 5 AFC Title games. WHY IS IT SO HARD FOR VOTERS TO ACCEPT THAT THE SNAKE BELONGS IN THE HALL OF FAME?

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - December 01 2011 08:06 AM

    Mike K., good catch on the aftermath of the Immaculate Reception game for Pittsburgh -- didn't double check that factoid before posting. If I'm going to criticize, I'm fair game to catch criticism like everyone else, so my mistake on that one. And agreed there are a few head-scratchers on the all decade teams (Joe Fortunato on the 50s team when most all his honors came in the 60s, Jim Parker on the 50s team as a guard when he only played tackle during the decade, Mel Blount and Billy Johnson on the 80s team when most of their honors came during the 70s, Larry Morris and Carl Banks and John Anderson being on such teams at all), but there's a lot of good decision-making on them as well. Like anything else, it pays to be discerning.

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - November 30 2011 03:41 PM

    SSR, several things. First, I would argue that stats normally do matter a lot in HoF consideration. For example, if one looks at the non-skill position players in the HoF, they are all with very few exceptions among the leaders at their positions in 1st team all pro selections, pro bowl selections (for years when that exists), and all decade team membership. The only major exceptions I can think of are the otherwise deserving Ray Nitschke and Sam Huff and a few very recent mistakes that have bucked this trend (Dick LeBeau, Fred Dean, Emmitt Thomas, Richard Dent). And stats also matter a lot at skill positions. Looking at Rasaretnam's adjusted for era QB rankings shows that in "Best 10 years" rankings, all of the top 14 QBs except Ken Anderson are in the HoF or will be (Peyton Manning, Brett Favre), that in "Best 7 years" rankings, all of the top 19 QBs except Anderson and Roman Gabriel are in the HoF or likely will be (Manning, Favre, Kurt Warner), and that in the "Best 4 years" rankings, all of the top 15 QBs except Anderson are in the HoF or likely will be (Manning, Warner). Second, exceptions are normally made only for Hall of the Very Good level QBs who won multiple Super Bowls or NFL Championships (to varying degrees, that holds for guys like Bobby Layne, Terry Bradshaw, Bob Waterfield, Sid Luckman, Arnie Herber, and Bob Griese) -- and most of the HoF stat outliers on Rasaretnam's rankings have this plus. Stabler only has one Super Bowl win. Third, comparing your favorite HoF snub to one of its weakest members is not a good argument, and that holds for comparisons to Joe Namath -- some consider him a flat-out mistake, and his election likely came about because of a unique combination of factors (winning arguably the most significant Super Bowl in history, having a career boasting a short but highly noticeable peak, having significant cultural noteworthiness including being the only sports figure on Nixon's "Enemies List," being considered the best QB from the old AFL). If you're talking "impact," Namath indeed had plenty, and it's unclear how Stabler's non-stat "impact" equals Namath's. Fourth, I'm greatly unimpressed with the "if you can't tell the history of the NFL without mentioning the person, he belongs in the HoF" argument. There are many "histories" of the NFL that can be written from many different perspectives. For me, I can't imagine a history of the NFL that omits mentioning Jay Berwanger, the first #1 pick in the first NFL draft -- but he never played a down in the NFL. Or omitting Doug Williams, the first QB of color to win a Super Bowl. Or omitting mention of the 1958 NFL Championship Game, sometimes referred to as "The Greatest Game Ever Played," the first such game that went into overtime and arguably put the NFL "on the map" with the general public -- won by a TD run by Alan Ameche that is now an iconic visual image. But sorry, I don't see that this means Berwanger, Williams, or Ameche belong in the HoF as elected members. And even if we consider the "Sea of Hands" and "Holy Roller Game" to be part of this essential NFL history, does that mean Clarence Davis and Pete Banaszak, two key members of these plays, belong in the HoF? I don't see why. Fifth, I'm also greatly unimpressed with whining about controversial referee calls -- it's all "woulda, shoulda, coulda." The refs arguably give (the phantom roughing the passer call against Sugar Bear Hamilton in 1976 that helped Stabler reach his only Super Bowl) and the refs arguably take away (the Immaculate Reception in 1972 that gave the Steelers a last-play win against the Raiders and put the former into the Super Bowl). It happens, and it's part of the game, like it or not. The best policy is to not get oneself in a sufficiently precarious position that a controversial call can beat you.

    Report Violation

  • SSR - November 30 2011 07:07 AM

    Ok, but bachslunch, you got to remember, stats aren't the only thing that makes a Pro Football Hall of Famer, it's also impact that a player leaves behind. One question that's asked in the selection meetings is, "Can you write the history of the NFL without (insert name here)?" Can you write the history of the NFL without Ghost to the Post? Sea of Hands? Holy Roller? I was born in 1990 and I even know how important the Snake is to the NFL. Also, if it wasn't for the bias that referees had for the Raiders, Stabler would've gotten 2 or 3 Super Bowl rings. If you take away Super Bowl III, is there much to remember Joe Namath by? If you take away Super Bowl XI, you still have a lot to remember the Snake by.

    Report Violation

  • SSR - November 28 2011 11:14 PM

    The only reason The Snake's not in the HOF is because the voters have the nerve to mix off the field activities with on the field activities. How do you put Biletnikoff and Casper in and not the man that threw passes to them?

    reported

  • alan - November 28 2011 07:35 AM

    Why isn't Ray Guy in the Hall of Fame?

    Report Violation

  • joshbgill - November 27 2011 07:36 PM

    This has probably been said before, but I don't care--it needs to be repeated over and over and over again: Jim Marshall's absence from the hall of fame is ASININE. That's like baseball's hall of fame overlooking Cal Ripken Jr. and never getting him in. Those who don't know Marshall, look him up. The guy held the record for most games played until Favre broke it. Thing is, he was a DE! Not to mention a perennial all pro DE. Yeah, he's remembered for the wrong-way touchdown, but the fact is, the Vikings won that game, thanks in part to a forced fumble thanks to Marshall himself. It is a JOKE that he isn't even being considered.

    Report Violation

  • Jim - November 27 2011 04:00 PM

    Also Steve Tasker should be in there no doubt about it. He made so many amazing plays on special teams for 10 years. He blocked punts, pinned the ball deep in opponents territory and shutdown big time return threats. My fasvorite play was when Deion Sanders jumped over a sliding Tasker and he grabbed Deions ankle and threw him down. AWESOME PLAY!!!

    Report Violation

  • Jim - November 27 2011 03:55 PM

    Andre Reed never gets the respect he deserves, all you ever here about for receivers in the 1990s is Rice, Carter, Irvin. Reed belongs in that conversation everytime. If he doesn't get in the Hall in the next 2 or 3 years it is a joke.

    Report Violation

  • Rob - November 27 2011 12:55 PM

    Dermontti Dawson was the best C of the entire 90s and has more 1st team All-Pro nominations than Stephenson has Pro Bowls. Only C with a better claim in the post-Super Bowl era is Webster (although Tingelhoff also has a valid claim) and of course Donnie Shell belongs, as does LC Greenwood, but that's obviously not happening.

    Report Violation

  • Brandon - November 27 2011 04:08 AM

    I still see the need to wonder why after virtually every year, the selection process continues to exclude Ole Haugsrud. Ole remains the ONLY orginal team owner (Duluth Eskimos) still not in the Hall. As you walk through the Hall, you see a wonderful exhibit of the Duluth Eskimos, and Ole's contributions. Born in Canton but now living in Duluth, I understand the significance of what Ole gave to the game. It was stated in the selection process video, that it is often about patience. Is it not time to finally give Ole his place?

    Report Violation

  • Cowboy Fan - November 26 2011 11:18 PM

    Drew Pearson of the Dallas Cowboys has numbers thst should be compared to HOF'rs Raymond Berry and Lynn Swann. Avg. 16 plus yards a catch, 1 Super Bowl ring (in 3 appearences), 3x All Pro, named to All Decade team of the 1970's (first team). Career cut short at age 32 due to car accident.

    Report Violation

  • Cowboy Fan - November 26 2011 11:09 PM

    Cliff Branch of the Oakland Raiders numbers compare favorably to Bob Hayes (who the HOF took far too long to induct). He avg. 17 plus yards per catch prior to the rules changes in 1983-84 that exploded to yardage totals for both receivers and quarterbacks. He has 3 Super Bowl rings, was 3x All Pro, and was considered the dominant deep threat of the 1970's.

    Report Violation

  • Cowboy Fan - November 26 2011 11:02 PM

    You know it's sometimes easy to understand the "ignorance" of some who watch football. Their viewpoint is slanted toward the benefit of the favorite team and/or player. That's the passion WE ALL have for the NFL...and I include my-self. But I do expect better from those who are the "so-called" writers, historians, experts, who are contantly in front of a tv, on a mic, telling us of the depth of their knowledge of the game. When I see the list of GREAT players who are CONSISTANTLY passed over for the HOF (my list to come), it tells me these self-appointed "gate keepers" of the HOF should have their key removed. I don't have a problem so much with the veterans committee, but these writers...I heard one guy a few years ago say he thought MARSHALL FAULK was a marginal HOFer, and definitely not first ballot...I mean this is the kind of nonsense you get form these people.

    Report Violation

  • John - November 26 2011 10:24 AM

    The addition of the term "run-after-catch" (RAC) came into being in the NFL due to one individual--Andre Reed. If the criteria for the writers is satestics, or fame, or both, Andre Reed's credentials are stellar.

    Report Violation

  • John - November 25 2011 05:48 PM

    Jerry Rice once stated that he was not the greatest receiver in the NFL. I can't think of anyone who would know better than him, and he said that the best WR in the game was Andre Reed. Andre Reed was the "go-to" guy in the no-huddle offense of the ninties; it was Andre who scored three of the second half touchdowns in the "greatest comeback in NFL history. At one point Andre Reed was second on the all-time receptions list behind only Jerry Rice.

    Report Violation

  • CRUSH ARIZONA - November 25 2011 12:51 PM

    to even think about Cris Carter before Rod Smith is unthinkable. The fact that he isn't even a semi-fanalist this year is a travesty and shows that the HOF committee hasn't got a clue. Where is Gradishar? look at the stats, No doubt he was the greatest defensive force in the history of the game period. TD all the way, A****er all the way, Mecklenburg before Gradishar? NO WAY? Now I do believe Carl deserves his Bronze,but not before Randy...Another word to describe the HOF committee RIDICULOUSNESS!!! It seems more than ever that they don't even care about the sanctity of the sport but they rather prefer to pander to popularity.Just who the heck are these people?

    Report Violation

  • Gabe - November 24 2011 10:44 AM

    I hear people say that Haley was too one dimensional, but when the clashes of the mid 90s between the Niners and Cowboys have to adjust their entire offensive game plan due to one player should be enough to say that Haley impacted the game like no other. The Niners/Cowboys rivalry of the 90s will be matched by no other. Haley has 5 SB rings that he won while playing for these two teams and no one else can say that he was lured away from one team just to beat the other....Haley should have been first ballot HoF and well deserving of his place now.

    Report Violation

  • Jeff - November 24 2011 10:19 AM

    Andre Reed definitely should be among the class of 2012 !!! Reed has waited long enough. Reed was one the most prolific receivers to ever play the game, and was one of the best receivers for yards “after the catch.” Reed help lead the Buffalo Bills to four consecutive Super Bowls (1991-1994), and Reed was selected to the Pro Bowl in seven consecutive seasons.

    Report Violation

  • Jeff - November 24 2011 10:08 AM

    All I have to say is " ANDRE REED" !!!

    Report Violation

  • Zronc - November 23 2011 10:56 PM

    One name...Coryell....

    reported

  • Andrew P - November 23 2011 08:50 PM

    Terrell Davis is MUST selection. He carried the Broncos. Not Elway And he is one of only a handful of running backs to ever exceed 2,000 yards in a season. His career was cut short by injury. But his skill and accomplishments, including a 2,000 yard season and a super bowl MVP make him a hall-of-famer.

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - November 23 2011 02:40 PM

    I've got to disagree with any naysayers about Kevin Greene for the HoF. His postseason honors profile of 3(2AP)/5/90s is among the best of any OLB not in the HoF, and comparable to some from the period already in. And despite being a terrific pass rusher, he was from all reports a complete LB, able to play the run and in pass coverage as well when needed. He actually has a stronger case than Charles Haley, whose 2(2AP)/5/none profile is a little leaner than Greene's and who had 100.5 sacks and 8 fumble recoveries to Greene's 160 sacks and 26 fumble recoveries. And since "rings" don't historically matter in HoF cases for defensive players, anyone who brings up the "5 rings" argument for Haley will be dismissed pronto. Re Ole Haugsrud, he was a Senior finalist long ago and was not elected to the HoF at the time, and it's unclear to me what makes his case compelling.

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - November 23 2011 02:01 PM

    Folks, Tommy Nobis and Ray Guy are only eligible as Seniors, not via the regular route anymore -- this isn't the thread to bring them up. Donnie Shell was an unsuccessful finalist once before, and he likely hasn't made it in because the HoF voters don't much seem to like safeties and because there are already a lot of 70s-80s championship era Steelers in -- though I can see a case for him. Much as I'd like to see Dermontti Dawson get in the HoF, I'd like very much to know the argument that says he was the best center in NFL history -- and anyone making that claim should say why he was "greater" than Jim Otto and Dwight Stephenson, for two. I also don't see a HoF case for Jason Elam when Gary Anderson and Nick Lowery aren't in. While Rasputin's point about Terrell Davis vs. Gale Sayers is a good one, I'd actually be willing to credit Davis with a close-to elite-level rookie season as well (for 4 such, which is still less than Sayers's 5 such plus KR prowess) -- Davis wouldn't be the worst HoF choice for those who value high and short peaks, though. And those who think Jerome Bettis should have been "first ballot," that's a lot to expect from a RB with minimal receiver capacity and low yds/rush who has good longevity but minimal peak value -- in fact, there are some astute football observers who think he isn't a good HoF choice at all.

    Report Violation

  • bachslunch - November 23 2011 01:40 PM

    Not much in the way of surprises among returning semi-finalists. The new names are kind of interesting, with mostly good choices and one bad one. Good to see Ron Wolf, who I think is very deserving, become a semi-finalist -- he might make an Ed Sabol-type run all the way in if he reaches finalist stage. Donnie Shell is in his last eligible year, if memory serves, and he has been a finalist once before (not sure sure he'll do any better this time around, though) -- unfortunately, Kenny Easley, who was also in his last eligible year and eminently deserving, didn't get this far. Steve Atawater is to my mind HoF deserving, though why he got the push ahead of Easley, Joey Browner, Leroy Butler, Deron Cherry, and Darren Woodson is an interesting question -- but I guess you have to start somewhere with getting safeties in. I've come around a lot regarding Karl Mecklenburg's HoF worth, whose postseason honors profile is 4(3AP)/6/none, which is as far as I can tell the best among available middle or inside LBs of the 80s and 90s not in -- only Sam Mills rivals him at 3(1AP)/5/none, and given that only Harry Carson and Mike Singletary are in from this period thus far at the position, there's room for at least two more -- Mills and Mecklenburg are good options. Clay Matthews is the major mistake here -- when his postseason honors profile is 1(0AP)/4/none while other OLBs from the time such as Cornelius Bennett at 3(1AP)/5/90s and Pat Swilling at 2(2AP)/5/none and Greg Lloyd at 3(3AP)/5/none haven't gotten the time of day, that puts Matthews at the next level down.

    Report Violation

  • Hill901 - November 23 2011 01:15 PM

    Where is STEELER NATION!!! Donnie Shell should have been in 10 years ago , and yes we will add the #5 top rusher all time in Bettis, and 10 time pro bowl center Dermonti Dawson, he was the top center in the game during his playing days. Lets add Kevin Greene for fun.

    Report Violation

  • Birdman - November 23 2011 01:07 PM

    Jerome Bettis should have been a 1st Ballott!! Darmonti Dawson was the best center to EVER play the game and should have been admitted a few years ago!!! As somebody else already posted: "How is Donnie Shell NOT already in the HOF?"" Terrell Davis only played 5 YEARS?? Why is he even being considered????? Curtis Martin only played 9 years, and never one anything. Ok runner, not a HOF'er. Kevein Greene was pretty good when with the Steelers, but not a HOL'er. Tim Brown should be in already!!

    Report Violation

  • jeremy - November 23 2011 01:07 PM

    Parcells, aeneas williams, tim brown, cris carter, and will shields - just had the best overall careers of the those guys listed above - Parcells coached 3 superbowl winning teams in new york and appeared in one with new england - coached several hall of famers including the greatest linebacker of all-time Lawrence Taylor -- he was also the forefather and mentor of another sure-fire hall of fame head coach, Bill Belichick -- Parcells must be enshrined for sure… Tim Brown, cris carter, will shields, and aeneas williams each had over a solid decade of pro-bowl excellence -- Tim Brown was the backbone of the Raiders offense, shields anchored one of the best offensive lines of all time for over a decade, aeneas williams was a one man army as a defensive cornerback on a crappy team -- Other candidates' careers don't measure up -- Craig was too much of a system guy, he was only good in San Fransisco's offense with Montana, Young, Rice and only good for a short term… - the running game was the final piece that gave the broncos super bowl glory - Terelle Davis gave us only 3 excellent years of football and he played barely five years and his surrounding cast, offensive line, QB, defense contributed mightily to his success - Kevin Greene was not ever hall of fame good - Charles Haley was too one dimensional, he was a great pass rushing specialist but mediocre in every other respect, mecklenberg was good but not hall of fame caliber -- Tasker was just a special teams guy, a very good one but not a spectacular one -- Don Coryell pioneered the west coast vertical game, while his offense made lots of thrilling fireworks - it never led to championship winning football -- To me, a hall of famer has to have a "superman" quality that just stands out over a long period of time - anything less would demean the great honor of Canton and the sparkling careers of those already enshrined -- all of the semifinalists are great football people but only a few have that WOW that should be immortalized

    reported

  • Jeremy - November 23 2011 12:27 PM

    Being as objective as possible - Parcells, aeneas williams, tim brown, cris carter, and will shields

    Report Violation

  • scrivener - November 23 2011 11:30 AM

    Ha. It's funny that part of Steve A-****E-R's name is being censored by the website's filter. When technology goes awry.

    reported

  • scrivener - November 23 2011 11:28 AM

    Another voice in support of Ray Guy. It's ridiculous that he's not in.

    Report Violation

  • Brandon - November 23 2011 10:37 AM

    I still see the need to wonder why after virtually every year, the selection process continues to exclude Ole Haugsrud. Ole remains the ONLY orginal team owner (Duluth Eskimos) still not in the Hall. As you walk through the Hall, you see a wonderful exhibit of the Duluth Eskimos, and Ole's contributions. Born in Canton but now living in Duluth, I understand the significance of what Ole gave to the game. It was stated in the selection process video, that it is often about patience. Is it not time to finally give Ole his place?

    reported

  • Brandon - November 23 2011 08:05 AM

    Mecklenberg, A****er, Davis and Cris Carter

    reported

  • Cindy - November 23 2011 07:18 AM

    What a disgrace the Hall of Fame has done to RAY GUY. Put him in the HALL! You can't play a game without a PUNTER! All of the voters make me ill.

    Report Violation

  • Steve - November 23 2011 03:49 AM

    T. Davis and Curtis martin came in together. Ask any running back, if you could have Curtis Martin's longevity and numbers OR Terrell Davis', 2,000 yard season, 2 Super Bowl Championships (Back-To-Back), NFL MVP, Super Bowl MVP (3 TDs), and other accolades, which would you rather have? No contest! Davis should be in!!! A****er and Mecklenburg are way overdue!

    Report Violation

  • Tim Lanham - November 23 2011 02:01 AM

    I have never been a Raiders fan, but there is a big injustice that Ray Guy is not in the Hall. Every position but punter is represented in Canton. There are a few that should be considered.

    Report Violation

  • Rasputin - November 22 2011 11:33 PM

    Darren Woodson was more deserving of making the top 25 than Roger Craig. Craig was a system dependent scat back who never had more than 726 yards from scrimmage after leaving SF and only had three 1,000 yard rushing seasons in his entire career. He was a nice player for the 49ers, but not HoF worthy. Woodson was one of the best safeties of the 1990s and one of the first in history to combine brutally hard hitting with the ability to shut down slot receivers and elite TEs in one on one coverage.

    Report Violation

  • Rasputin - November 22 2011 11:19 PM

    Carter will probably get in eventually, but I'd put Sterling Sharpe in first. Of course I would have put him in Canton before his brother Shannon. Lining up a big receiver of somewhat above average ability next to the tackle and calling him a "tight end" whether he blocks or not seems like a cheap and easy way to get into the HoF. Sterling had a shortened career but it was long enough to qualify for Canton and he was a better player than the other two.

    reported

  • Rasputin - November 22 2011 11:13 PM

    Gale Sayers had five elite seasons. Terrell Davis had three. You have to draw the line somewhere, and traditionally Sayers' career stands as a good Mendoza line for longevity in HoF discussions.

    Report Violation

  • deeporange - November 22 2011 11:02 PM

    Mecklenburg and A****er, both very deserving. TD, not so much. As a lifelong Bronco fan, great to see him mentioned, and I know the argument goes: "If you're going to select Gayle Sayers, you have to select TD, the stats are very close." Love TD, but he had around ten times the talent around him that Sayers did, #40 did what he did largely alone on the basis of pure ability. I wouldn't object to TD being selected, but I think there are players ahead of him in line, to be perfectly honest. Randy Gradishar, perhaps...

    Report Violation

  • Denver_Native - November 22 2011 10:38 PM

    Not sure why a ****e r was censured

    Report Violation

  • Denver_Native - November 22 2011 10:38 PM

    Man it's refreshing to see more and more Broncos getting HOF love. Steve A****er was my favorite Bronco growing up (Obviously there was Elway too) but A****er was a HUGE reason the Broncos beat the Pack in SB XXXII. I know kickers dont get in often but Elam deserves consideration. Numbers and world championships dont lie.

    Report Violation

  • Denver_Native - November 22 2011 10:37 PM

    Man it's refreshing to see more and more Broncos getting HOF love. Steve A****er was my favorite Bronco growing up (Obviously there was Elway too) but A****er was a HUGE reason the Broncos beat the Pack in SB XXXII. I know kickers dont get in often but Elam deserves consideration. Numbers and world championships dont lie.

    reported

  • Chris - November 22 2011 10:34 PM

    Everyone should rally and vote for Tommy Nobis to get in as an old timer. After all, his nickname is "Mr. Falcon", he was the first ever draft pick of Atlanta, and he had 297 tackles as a rookie!

    Report Violation

  • Keith - November 22 2011 09:48 PM

    How is Donnie Shell not in the Hall of Fame?

    Report Violation

  • rick - November 22 2011 07:04 PM

    roaf, carter, bettis, martin and greene for me. very close with shields, doleman, brown, reed and haley.

    Report Violation

First time posting? A confirmation email will be sent to you after submitting.



Your Comments



Your email address is required to confirm your comments. Email addresses are never displayed to other users and they are not used for any other purposes other than story comments.

Once you enter your email address, name, and comment, you will be emailed a link to confirm your comment. Additionally, you will be sent a password. In the future, if you wish to leave other comments, use the password that is provided in the email.